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Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Australian Assetto Corsa League, Tuesday nights => Topic started by: Rolz on October 15, 2015, 06:08:36 PM

Title: Ballast
Post by: Rolz on October 15, 2015, 06:08:36 PM
I just wanted to start a discussion on how we do ballast as we are maturing with it as we get used to it...

The new season ballast design is great, but Marty then brought up a good point on if previous seasons quick drivers come on board late will then have a massive advantage...

Can we perhaps use the (most awesome BTW) all time driver and practice server stats somehow to work out a start of season or late starter ballast amount? http://www.xgn.com.au/index.php?topic=837.0

There are some pretty good stats in there to get a good baseline...

Why not just use that from the start of the next season.
80% of us are regulars and any newbies would just get the ballast added on if needed as we do it now?

Next Tuesday (Computer Hardware Depending) I'll start and be on Zero Ballast so I'll (and DA Racing) also have an advantage as well over the others...

Sorry if it's a ramble... just getting points out to feed a discussion...

 ;D
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 15, 2015, 06:18:15 PM
I just wish there was a grip handicap that could be used instead.

I'm always up for trying something.  It could be trialed Thursday night.  I don't think the ballast system is going to get too much better though as I don't think the stats show what your times are and how much quicker you are relative to others.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 15, 2015, 06:57:29 PM
I can ”guesstimate” a starting ballast, using the driver history stats we have so far. It might be fairer for late starters. Otherwise, yes, Monsieurs Marty and Guybrush will win the first race easily. It will also prevent other ballasts from being skewed by having times suddenly way faster than everyone else.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on October 15, 2015, 07:36:11 PM
I think also if GB for example has no ballast round 1 and ballast for round 2 is determined by lap times vs others then its quite likely he will be ballasted like this for the next race with a full second car as ballast.  ;D

(http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2015/09/28/1227547/168525-40fc1300-657c-11e5-bc96-657f46b5fc25.jpg)

Here is how the cars ended up that way.
[youtube]E9rZ8hkDXIU[/youtube]
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 15, 2015, 08:53:41 PM
Must have warped.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 16, 2015, 06:20:19 PM
That's normally how I try to end my race, not star tit.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 18, 2015, 10:28:37 AM
Just a thought Wally, if ballast will continue to be used is it worth having a week of "ballast testing" in the designated car with the lower track grip before a season starts - this way you will have an idea of how different amounts of ballast effect time.

Especially with some of the lighter cars that rely on downforce, ballast seems to have a major effect and is compounded by a decrease in track grip. 

Eventually we may even be able to calculate a "ballast weight x car weight = average lap time increase" formula if we can log our data. 
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 18, 2015, 12:19:45 PM
Just a thought Wally, if ballast will continue to be used is it worth having a week of "ballast testing" in the designated car with the lower track grip before a season starts - this way you will have an idea of how different amounts of ballast effect time.

Especially with some of the lighter cars that rely on downforce, ballast seems to have a major effect and is compounded by a decrease in track grip. 

Eventually we may even be able to calculate a "ballast weight x car weight = average lap time increase" formula if we can log our data.

That's already what I do. I do my own pre-season test to get an "x kg = y% decrease" baseline, and then after every round I look at how much the different amounts of ballast have slowed everyone down, average out the decreases per ballast (because everyone's slightly different) and refine the ballast figure. Every race gives me more data to refine the ballast amount.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on October 18, 2015, 01:00:37 PM
A suggestion for another possible ballast season option, the week before the next round everyone tries to set a lap time with no ballast in the combo for the round. Points would be awarded from fastest to slowest towards the season for this and then going by the laptimes set, ballast would be used on race nite to try handicap all to within similar laptimes.

In order to stop people deliberatly underperforming in the weeks laptime setting there could be max ballast for any people not setting a laptime and also more points awarded for those running higher ballast on the race nite. This would still mean it would gain most points by trying to set the quickest practice lap and then also trying to finish as high as possible. Compared to someone that could tank a bit in practice then run very light on the nite and even if winning easily would likely not score as many points as the guy running the highest ballast for the round if they finished reasonably well.

I dont know if that would really work but could be worth experimenting in a between season practice run.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Simone on October 18, 2015, 02:42:42 PM
Ca we get rid of ballast? 
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 18, 2015, 02:57:05 PM
Ballast is good, but any way to make it as effective as possible is worth a try.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 18, 2015, 04:18:21 PM
The current method has been refined in practice over many years.

Simone, ate you scared of having more cars around you? ;)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Simone on October 18, 2015, 08:33:25 PM
hheehheehehehehhehehehe
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on October 19, 2015, 09:32:26 PM
The way the ballast is I think for example Jeremy will be screwed in race 1 with no hope of competing at that weight, he will then get the slowest lap times meaning he will get no ballast race 2. Then race 2 he will be the quickest by a bit and so get max ballast again for the start of the next race being stuck in a cycle unless he deliberately paces himself in race 2 in order to not go too quick. I really don't think ballast is ever good if it means some people have no chance of even competing due to the ballast where normally they are up the front.

The top weight should have the chance to get a win if ballast is done properly where all would be back to a certain laptime. But giving someone ballast of over 7 seconds per lap here is just too much. Looking at the laptimes from race 1 with no ballast round 1 last week excluding the 2 slowest who may have been damaged or something there was only 4 seconds between the field here so giving such extreme ballasts for this round seems rather odd. For me I can do 1:45.0 with no ballast and with 100kg 1:47.9 so 2.9 seconds there which is quite a large margin already. Jeremy with his weight could do 1:52.6 losing huge amounts of time already to me and GB who have 100 and 130kg already.

Looking at results from race 2 last week the 3 top weights were 2 to 3 seconds of the pace and shows they had zero chance of being in the top 5 or even competitive. And I think this will be the case for all unless everyone is getting ballast at a rate to try and get all to a certain mid time. For example going by the first race around 1:33.5 was the mid ground so these guys should get say 100kg of ballast, those quicker will get more to level it out and the slowest guy would get 0 or anyone that would be 3 seconds off the pace. You could also work it from 75kg being the mid lap time and if it works properly then all should be able to lap within 1 second of eachother. But getting ballast to be completely out of the next race makes it a bit silly I think.

Its a good way of levelling things out if done well but I cant see how the current system is doing anything other then letting everyone get a win by shear fact they have the least amount of weight. Guys getting large ballast may as well not bother in some races and I don't think that's very good for anyone. Last season BTCC ballast method I think was much fairer then this system, I thought that the ballast was going to even up the racing more but to me I think its not doing that at all for the next round.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 19, 2015, 10:35:32 PM
You can't judge the ballast after one race. It takes a few races to settle to an appropriate value. One thing I used to do in the past is ”damp” the initial ballast swings for the first few races to reduce these big initial swings, so you only got 70% of the calculated ballast change (as the netKar guys may remember). After a number of races, you then get 100% of the calculated ballast change. I'll have to check if that's working correctly in the AC version. I have a suspicion that's not working properly. If I can have a look in time tomorrow, I might reduce the ballast ”swing” by 70% (I think that was the factor I used).

It's not done by gut feel Marty. It's all calculated, based on times that people actually do, and how much ballast actually slows people down, all things that are measurable from the race results.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 20, 2015, 05:58:41 AM
I calculated that 10 kg is worth around 2 tenths of a second in these around here.  But it's all compounded by fuel and grip.

Im really loving these cars.  So much fun and a nice change from the docile tin tops.

One thing I didn't check was DRS.  Is this working and in use?  I don't recall seeing DRS in the electronics app.  The devs may have disabled it.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: grat on October 20, 2015, 07:39:57 AM
Hi GB: virtuasimulazioni website says they will only implement DRS on the FR3.5 when and if we have full DRS zones implementation on Assetto Corsa. So: it is not available now but will probably be in future updates.

As for the 2 tents per 10 kg. It is probably not linear, but in the ranges I could experiment with, I had something like a second every 35kg, so more like 3 tenths per 10kg. But yeah, we are around those numbers.

I have also noticed suspensions setup changes a lot. With 126kg I run fairly hard suspensions (just a tad below default, but with softer front dumpers). But if I run the same setup on 0kg, I skip like a stone throughout most of the hangar straight. Also, gearing might be different, as top speed is obviously quite different.

This brings another little issue: if we change ballast for every race (as opposed to every round) it will be harder for everybody to have a decently balanced car.

Wally: please do not take this as a criticism of the method itself. You are clearly putting some clever effort into it. But I do agree with Marty that ballast should balance the race and not invert the results. To make a silly example: a perfect ballast would make GB .8 of a sec faster than me instead of 2 seconds, leaving Marty, Matthew, and Jeremy in between and giving me a chance to battle for the podium at most venues. As it is, it risks making me fastest by a second or slower by 5 seconds depending on who had a clean lap in the previous race.  I am sure you are right that the edges will smooth out after a few rounds, but perhaps a smoother (or stepped) implementation as you suggested in the last posts might work better.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 20, 2015, 08:13:14 AM
Guys.... I ran 15 seasons of netKar league races using this ballast method. 15 seasons. Hundreds and hundreds of races. Trust me, if there were unfairness or anomalies, I and the other racers would have seen them.

Don't be so quick to judge, after one round. Theorising is wonderful... but there's no substitute for seeing what actually happens.

Nothing is inverted. The goal is to bring people to the middle lap time. It compresses, not inverts.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Phil.8 on October 20, 2015, 10:48:44 AM
wow 15 seasons,  thats impressive,  Wish I had discovered netKar when it was popular
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Freezer on October 20, 2015, 11:55:44 AM
Guys.... I ran 15 seasons of netKar league races using this ballast method. 15 seasons. Hundreds and hundreds of races. Trust me, if there were unfairness or anomalies, I and the other racers would have seen them.

Don't be so quick to judge, after one round. Theorising is wonderful... but there's no substitute for seeing what actually happens.

Nothing is inverted. The goal is to bring people to the middle lap time. It compresses, not inverts.
Im with Wally.  Having been one of those who ran most of the NetKar seasons it works just fine.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Joe on October 20, 2015, 12:07:36 PM
That's a lot of seasons! Some of you guys have been doing this a long time huh!
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 20, 2015, 01:05:08 PM
The funny thing is that it feels like I only just started sim racing properly not long ago, but then I realise that AC was released 2+ years ago... I think.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Rolz on October 20, 2015, 01:11:32 PM
the discussion is healthy and I think we all want the same end point... lets see how tonight goes!
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Simone on October 20, 2015, 01:40:16 PM
For  me ballast is crap.are we serious enough not to use it? Honestly,do not care about it but the reason why i do not like it  is that i feel unconfortable(highly) being ahead of guybrush,or jeremy,or Edwood or whoever just because they got penalized....no is not for me.

The same setup(fixed setup) bring the field closer already,and i like it.


It goes without saying that ballast or no tonight i will get a podium.......fuck ye!!!!!   :P :P :P :P :P :P :P


 
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 20, 2015, 01:58:03 PM
That's a lot of seasons! Some of you guys have been doing this a long time huh!
And rFactor before that and GT Legends before that. I started league racing around 2006. Can't you tell by how good I am? And some go back further than that.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Bacchulum on October 20, 2015, 05:15:54 PM
Guys.... I ran 15 seasons of netKar league races using this ballast method. 15 seasons. Hundreds and hundreds of races. Trust me, if there were unfairness or anomalies, I and the other racers would have seen them.

Don't be so quick to judge, after one round. Theorising is wonderful... but there's no substitute for seeing what actually happens.

Nothing is inverted. The goal is to bring people to the middle lap time. It compresses, not inverts.
Im with Wally.  Having been one of those who ran most of the NetKar seasons it works just fine.
And I'll add my support to that as well.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Freezer on October 20, 2015, 06:40:32 PM
That's a lot of seasons! Some of you guys have been doing this a long time huh!
And rFactor before that and GT Legends before that. I started league racing around 2006. Can't you tell by how good I am? And some go back further than that.
I think I started not long after that.   Why aren't we at the front by now Wally..??
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 20, 2015, 06:42:03 PM
That's a lot of seasons! Some of you guys have been doing this a long time huh!
And rFactor before that and GT Legends before that. I started league racing around 2006. Can't you tell by how good I am? And some go back further than that.
I think I started not long after that.   Why aren't we at the front by now Wally..??

Too much time to reinforce bad habits. That's my excuse, anyway.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: grat on October 20, 2015, 09:10:21 PM
Wally: as I said, I did not mean to criticize the method (or you, of course). And I am completely sure you know what you are talking about when you say it will smooth out pretty soon. I just saw some glitches in these first races and thought to share with you so you can make the most informed plan.

Example today: I started race 1 and as soon as I thought the lap 1 mess was ending, the driver ahead of me lifted (or braked) at Maggots (!). So of course I ended up rear-ending him, losing the front wing downforce, and crashing at the next corner. This suggests that although the pace was similar between me and him, the lines and braking points were so different that it might get dangerous.

I wish you understand I am in no way criticizing the organization. Of course I am disappointed, but not for the result, but because I really enjoy driving in this league. I really look forward to it every week, and it is a testament of how well it is organized.

Now back for race 2.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 20, 2015, 11:33:24 PM
That's something you have to learn with ballast. You have to allow more braking room for a heavy car in front, as their braking distance is increased. It pays to keep half an eye on who's quite heavy.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: grat on October 21, 2015, 06:37:21 AM
Sure: I know it is my fault, as I was the one behind. But it was me the heavy one (118kg), not him (0kg).  ;)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 21, 2015, 07:33:44 AM
That is the reason why I normally have contact Grat - assuming someone is taking the same lines and brake points, etc or not allowing them to be faster/slower enough.  It's much more difficult following slower guys than faster guys IMO but after a while you learn who is likely to do what.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Rolz on October 21, 2015, 09:16:16 AM
After last night... will have to have 3 setups ready per race night to cater for the massive swings.

No Ballast, 50KG's and 100KG's... I don't think I'll ever be so fast to get slapped with 150KG's.

Edit - I really need to know how Freezer can get 88KG Ballast after winning R1 and StanDaam and I are ~100KG's?
Also christopheraser is quick, quals quick and then gets nothing in R2?

Really still need to fine tune that calculator  :o
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Freezer on October 21, 2015, 09:24:25 AM
After last night... will have to have 3 setups ready per race night to cater for the massive swings.

No Ballast, 50KG's and 100KG's... I don't think I'll ever be so fast to get slapped with 150KG's.

Edit - I really need to know how Freezer can get 88KG Ballast after winning R1 and StanDaam and I are ~100KG's?
Also christopheraser is quick, quals quick and then gets nothing in R2?

Really still need to fine tune that calculator  :o
Answer:  Lap times.  I was out in front but I purposely only pushed enough to stay in front.  You set a best lap 3/10ths quicker than my best.  Stan was also marginally quicker on his best time.  Christo only did two laps and was out!
You need to be a bit strategic in the ballast game....

As for set ups you only need to slightly stiffen things to compensate for the weight.  I barely changed mine.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: grat on October 21, 2015, 09:44:31 AM
After last night... will have to have 3 setups ready per race night to cater for the massive swings.

No Ballast, 50KG's and 100KG's... I don't think I'll ever be so fast to get slapped with 150KG's.

Edit - I really need to know how Freezer can get 88KG Ballast after winning R1 and StanDaam and I are ~100KG's?
Also christopheraser is quick, quals quick and then gets nothing in R2?

Really still need to fine tune that calculator  :o
Answer:  Lap times.  I was out in front but I purposely only pushed enough to stay in front.  You set a best lap 3/10ths quicker than my best.  Stan was also marginally quicker on his best time.  Christo only did two laps and was out!
You need to be a bit strategic in the ballast game....

As for set ups you only need to slightly stiffen things to compensate for the weight.  I barely changed mine.

Personally I would not mind to get this strategic aspect of ballast out. That is why I suggested to Wally to use something closer to average lap time instead of fastest lap. I also see that there are a few things one can do to get their ballast down. For example, if you crash on lap 1, your ballast remains the same for next race if you just leave. But you can also go out, set a slow lap time, and lose 40 or 50kg! In general, in a bad race you might decide not to push as 15th or 18th place does not make much of a difference, while 50kg of ballasts next race might mean 10 positions.

Similarly, you might wish to try a 2 stops strategy one day, and then realize this will cost you extra ballast for next race, although you are not really "faster" than others. Last season we had an extra point for fast laps, encouraging you to try hard even if your race was not going well. Now we are reversing the incentives, instead.

Don't misunderstand me: every rule is a rule, and once a rule is in place, you play that game, and I am sure we will all have lots of fun doing it. But personally I found last season's ballast rules easier to understand and less incline to be bent. But this is probably just my preferences. So please do not mind about it too much :)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Rolz on October 21, 2015, 09:56:59 AM
Answer:  Lap times.  I was out in front but I purposely only pushed enough to stay in front.  You set a best lap 3/10ths quicker than my best.  Stan was also marginally quicker on his best time.  Christo only did two laps and was out!
You need to be a bit strategic in the ballast game....

Hmm... this is then where is starts to get interesting/annoying (unsure which one I'm feeling)

Us 3 were so far in front on race one that had I known (no ones fault but my own here) this I would have also eased off and sat behind StanDaam for the 3rd place instead of pushing for the win...

I then see this season becoming a "meah that's good enough, why try harder if I'm going to get pinged for it... "

Just take the points and you'll have a heaps better possibility of getting more points next race if ur not some pack mule...

My definition of racing just got an appendix

 ???
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on October 21, 2015, 11:18:28 AM
There is strategy aspect to it which kind of makes it a bit tricky as the guys with lots of ballast need to try their hardest to not come last, but then those that are low ballast can just pace themselves to ensure they don't get so much ballast. Then you have examples like Guybrush and Jeremey who both should have dropped lots of ballast for race 2 Jeremy and next round Guybrush. But as there is special extra ballast for some the strategic option doesn't really work.

This is why I suggest that ballast should be on best lap but either race or qualy, so if someone wants to play the game and pace themselves this will include having to back off in qualy and not just the race. The formula should also be the same for all and it was clear in race 2 lots were pacing themselves as even with my heavy car I came back from last to 6th but that was giving it full qualy pace once my car was fixed. I could have stayed out with a damaged car and been on 1:50 pace all race which technically would have dropped my ballast for the next race but seeing both Jeremey and GB did that, thanks to past history they have "special" rules applied to ensure they aren't too light the next race.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 21, 2015, 01:11:21 PM
All points read... I will reply tonight.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 21, 2015, 06:02:19 PM
I still think Ballast is the way to go, but may just need a couple of tweaks.  What if:

* Everyone without lap data from 2 qual + 2 races (4 sessions) is given the average amount of ballast - 70/80 kg?  This way you don't have newbies (or those that purposely set a slow time in their first race/round) out of position.

* Ballast is based on quickest lap over 4 sessions - so one whole round.  This way the ballast is consistent for everyone for that round and people can't tank in one session to benefit the other.  If they want to tank they effectively have to ruin both their races - by qualifying poorly and putting in slow lap times in the race.

They are the only tweaks I would consider as I think the calculations and system are very, very good but it's just the starting weights that may cause some fluctuations for a few rounds and also "behaviour modification"due to singular snapshot of data being used.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 21, 2015, 08:18:10 PM
 The ballast is largely successful - the racing was closer, and there were lots of tight battles, with different people in the mix. Take out a few anomalies (damaged cars or pedals, new joiners), and lap times were very, very close across a big, diverse field.

But reading everyone's comments, here are the problems I see with the ballast system, and what can be done about it:

1. New season starters are too light, and too fast
This can be fixed by giving people some average ballast amount as a starting point, as suggested. Everyone’s already in the game, so it’s no longer an issue, but if and when someone else joins, I can do this.

2. Ballast can swing too high and too low
Ballast can sometimes go too high, slowing someone too much, so next race, it goes too low, and they’re then too fast, and their ballast starts oscillating up and down. Most people just slowly trend to an equilibrium, especially if they’re very consistent. The fix for this is like any spring – add damping. I’ll start only changing ballast by 70% of the calculated amount. That will stop too large a change and reduce the likelihood of ballast “overshooting” the correct mark and starting to oscillate.

3. If someone’s damaged and slow, ballast is distorted
If someone’s too slow, slower than normal because of damage perhaps, they will drop too much ballast. The fix for that is, as suggested, to take the fastest of qualifying laps as well as race laps as your benchmark. That way, if someone is slow in a race because of damage, or doesn’t get enough laps in, we have their qualifying laps to go by as well as their race laps


Now, a ballast FAQ.
Fast guys have no chance of winning
Not true. The ballast system doesn’t push fast guys to the back of the pack – it pushes everyone towards the middle. It aims to make everyone’s lap time the same, so everyone has a chance of winning. It comes down to racecraft and adaptability.

People can game the system
Every system of rules can be gamed. For example:
“Top 10 reversed”
 - People will try to come 10th so they start the next race on pole.
“World Rally Championship: the leader goes out first on day 2, and has to sweep the road clean for everyone else”
 - Leaders deliberately drop time so that they don’t lead at the end of day 1.
“V8 Supercars: You get 3 cuts before a penalty”
 - Save the cuts for the end of the race and then use them up to gain time.
In our system, that’s why you get points for carrying ballast. It’s an incentive to go as fast as you can and get the appropriate ballast, to be rewarded in the season standings. How you play the game is all part of the fun. Are you going to slow down to avoid more ballast, but take the risk of the guy behind catching you?

I have to adjust my car setup as my ballast changes
Yes, you do. The “Car Engineer” app is your friend (you have to have dev apps enabled in assetto_corsa.ini). It shows spring frequencies and damper rates. Take note of settings that work for you, and then set your car up to match those frequencies and rates, and you will maintain your car balance. Check your gear ratios.

The system shouldn't need manual intervention
You'll always need some kind of human checks and balances. Guybrush's really slow lap times due to damage causing him to drop ballast are a case in point. But using qual and race laps to get your fastest time, as well as the "damping", will help a lot towards needing to do this.


Some specific answers:

* Ballast is based on quickest lap over 4 sessions - so one whole round.
The ballast works better the more times you adjust it, as it has more "data" to work on. If you only do it once a round, that's only 6 or 7 opportunities to adjust it up or down, instead of 12 or 14, so I don't think that change is necessary.

Edit - I really need to know how Freezer can get 88KG Ballast after winning R1 and StanDaam and I are ~100KG's?
Also christopheraser is quick, quals quick and then gets nothing in R2?
As I said elsewhere, ballast is not based on your finish position, but your lap times. Even though Freezer won the race, his best lap time was 0.3 secs slower than yours, so he gets less ballast.
christopheraser only did 2 race laps, so got no change in ballast, but looking at qual laps as well will stop this.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 21, 2015, 08:30:41 PM
Sounds good Wally.

What about everyone with no qual/race data for the season starting with a certain amount of ballast?
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 21, 2015, 08:31:43 PM
Sounds good Wally.

What about everyone with no qual/race data for the season starting with a certain amount of ballast?

Yep, that's the whole "give them an average ballast" idea above.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 21, 2015, 08:32:53 PM
ah, cool. I missed that.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: G0RGAK on October 21, 2015, 09:18:49 PM
While I'm not quick enough to get ballast, thought I would add my 2 cents.  :)

Ballast should be the same for race 1 and 2, if people are spending a lot of time getting a setup sorted pre-race, then to have the weight changed and their setup rendered useless seems a bit unfair. Unless we do a 2nd practice session, but I think our Tuesday nights are, while awesome, long enough.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Rolz on October 22, 2015, 12:05:48 AM
Thanks Wally... you have had lots of experience with ballast I'm def still learning and appreciate all the thought and effort that goes into evening the pack out for close racing :)

My questions are for me to understand the system and am thankful for the explanation!  ;D
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on October 22, 2015, 01:05:56 AM
Thanks Wally all sounds good there.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: grat on October 22, 2015, 07:36:46 AM
Wally: thank you very much for your replies and FAQ. It is incredible how you manage to cope with all our questions instead of telling us to f** off.

One little thing: "Every system of rules can be gamed." There are theorems about this. In the specific case, we want the ranking order to be the same (that is, we want to make everybody closer, but without inverting positions). Therefore, the plan we want to implement is Maskin-monotonic. Then the theorem says that a system of rules that gives the correct ballasts and cannot be gamed exists. Admittedly, it might be very hard to figure it out and annoying to implement, but it is still a mathematical truth that such a system exists.

I am only half-serious, of course, but I thought you would have found this result at least fascinating. ;)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 22, 2015, 08:23:10 AM
 
Wally: thank you very much for your replies and FAQ. It is incredible how you manage to cope with all our questions instead of telling us to f** off.

One little thing: "Every system of rules can be gamed." There are theorems about this. In the specific case, we want the ranking order to be the same (that is, we want to make everybody closer, but without inverting positions). Therefore, the plan we want to implement is Maskin-monotonic. Then the theorem says that a system of rules that gives the correct ballasts and cannot be gamed exists. Admittedly, it might be very hard to figure it out and annoying to implement, but it is still a mathematical truth that such a system exists.

I am only half-serious, of course, but I thought you would have found this result at least fascinating. ;)

All good opportunities to practice Zen ;)

I'd forgotten you are a games theorist. I suppose all it would take is to increase the points rewards for carrying ballast, to provide a disincentive to deliberately going slow. Lose ballast, but lose more points than you would gain by finishing higher.

But the biggest reward of making sure you have the appropriately balancing ballast is close racing! Sure, you can drop all your ballast by throwing a race, but then all you've earned is a boring hotlapping session out in front the next race.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 22, 2015, 08:37:43 AM
I think if anything needs changing (and I believe with the changes Wally has implemented that all will be well), change a little bit, evaluate and change a little bit more if required.  I guess the danger is jumping too fast without a good range of data.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: grat on October 22, 2015, 09:24:32 AM
But the biggest reward of making sure you have the appropriately balancing ballast is close racing! Sure, you can drop all your ballast by throwing a race, but then all you've earned is a boring hotlapping session out in front the next race.

Ahahah! I'd forgotten you are a behavioralist ;) But you are right. Touché.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Simone on October 22, 2015, 02:02:18 PM
I dunno guys,so complicated.During qual in the last race twice my hotlap has been ruined by a very heavy driver this is not fair and a bit silly for both parties.
I sometimes (often)race with other leagues and we race without ballast and i cant see any difference in this obsession of keeping the group close,You know my point of view and its for a ballast free enviroment,fix setups,100% damage racing,the closer it can gets to a real deal on the track.

Of course see you at zandvoort where i will pass wally again..... 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 22, 2015, 02:24:33 PM
I dunno guys,so complicated.During qual in the last race twice my hotlap has been ruined by a very heavy driver this is not fair and a bit silly for both parties.
I sometimes (often)race with other leagues and we race without ballast and i cant see any difference in this obsession of keeping the group close,You know my point of view and its for a ballast free enviroment,fix setups,100% damage racing,the closer it can gets to a real deal on the track.

Of course see you at zandvoort where i will pass wally again..... 8) 8) 8)

If I didn't have any ballast, you'd never see me 8)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on October 22, 2015, 04:35:00 PM
I dunno guys,so complicated.During qual in the last race twice my hotlap has been ruined by a very heavy driver this is not fair and a bit silly for both parties.
I sometimes (often)race with other leagues and we race without ballast and i cant see any difference in this obsession of keeping the group close,You know my point of view and its for a ballast free enviroment,fix setups,100% damage racing,the closer it can gets to a real deal on the track.

Of course see you at zandvoort where i will pass wally again..... 8) 8) 8)

Ballast or not I have quite often been held up behind a slower driver in qualy, if they are on an out lap they should let everyone past but if they are on a hotlap they are entitled to the regular fast line on their qualy laps and people behind its tough luck. Track map is quite handy to try and find yourself a gap and make sure you have a clean run on your qualy lap.

I think I have stuffed more qualy sessions in earlier seasons then I got correct leaving some clear track, but I seem to either have got luckier or better at finding some clear space recently. It really doesn't make much difference if there is ballast or not as either way there may be 4 or 5 seconds between the fastest and slowest guys, maybe with ballast its made it easier to find space as my car is more midpack pace now.

For guys running no ballast or not enough for them and lapping way quicker then everyone else let me shed a couple tears for you and your trouble finding space in qualy.  :'(  ;D

If ballast actually closed the gaps down between fastest and slowest then in theory it should make it easier to get a clear run as you wont gain so much time on anyone in the session.  ;)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Simone on October 22, 2015, 05:36:23 PM
Hey wally ,,,cant believe you used the ballast as an excuse,anyhow i dont know but in the movie it looks like is you in my mirrors,,,aren`t  ya mate?

....thats the way i like it!!!!!

https://youtu.be/5rxRkActfNU


Of course Marty if they are lapping for time too bad...ye ye  Marty....ye...sure matey  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: grat on October 22, 2015, 06:18:17 PM
I dunno guys,so complicated.During qual in the last race twice my hotlap has been ruined by a very heavy driver this is not fair and a bit silly for both parties.
I sometimes (often)race with other leagues and we race without ballast and i cant see any difference in this obsession of keeping the group close,You know my point of view and its for a ballast free enviroment,fix setups,100% damage racing,the closer it can gets to a real deal on the track.

Of course see you at zandvoort where i will pass wally again..... 8) 8) 8)

I remember being once this Tuesday ahead of you in quali. I was on my first fast lap so I tried to do my time, but I noticed you were faster. So as soon as I made a mistake, I let you pass (just after Stowe). But in truth I did it mostly because I wanted to run my second attempt without anybody in less than a second either ahead or behind me.

Of course with the early rounds big swings in ballast, somebody is going to be much faster than others... perhaps you are not used to? ;) ;D 8) :-*
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on October 22, 2015, 06:26:44 PM
Hey wally ,,,cant believe you used the ballast as an excuse,anyhow i dont know but in the movie it looks like is you in my mirrors,,,aren`t  ya mate?

....thats the way i like it!!!!!

https://youtu.be/5rxRkActfNU


Of course Marty if they are lapping for time too bad...ye ye  Marty....ye...sure matey  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Yeah, that's me and my caravan keeping up with you ;)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 22, 2015, 06:50:17 PM
Lol, love the trash talk!  Keep it going!

I found some hidden footage of one of the Golden Goat Gatherers getting driving lessons in preparation for the next race:

[youtube]QbXeoOhPYyo[/youtube]
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on October 22, 2015, 07:04:33 PM
Lol, love the trash talk!  Keep it going!

I found some hidden footage of one of the Golden Goat Gatherers getting driving lessons in preparation for the next race:

[youtube]QbXeoOhPYyo[/youtube]

I cant tell which one of these is Stan, its possible he is in the scene Eddie murphy style and playing both characters which is my most likely conclusion.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: StanDaam on October 22, 2015, 09:18:18 PM
I can't believe you found that video!!
My first Tuesday night race... ahh good times...  :-X
I'm still not sure if Simone likes ballast or not... but hey where's my popcorn...  :-*
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 22, 2015, 09:34:17 PM
I think Simone is one of ballast's greatest advocates.  From what I can tell he is basically saying Wally would be too far in front without it???
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on November 04, 2015, 01:46:06 PM
Regarding ballast, I think this shows it evens the race pace up considerably.

Race 2 at Spa in the fr3.5

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7QrRPTrddBk/Vjidii-6aJI/AAAAAAAABaI/uw9fL9_lJvY/s1600/Race%2B2%2B-%2BGap%2Bto%2Bleader.png)

Here is the race pace in series 2 formula abarths at Imola. Notice all gaps just keep spreading out over the race, compared to the current season where most people were fairly even pace with the leader.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-udRceJrNc34/U-DPUJQvBzI/AAAAAAAAAtM/BWeyrvQErdw/s1600/Race+2+-+Gap+to+leader.png)

Still some seasons without ballast may be fun or even just success ballast as in last season. Its been interesting starting so far back in the packs and I think in the long run everyones driving in close quarters will improve the more we all do it.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on November 04, 2015, 01:58:47 PM
Yessiree. That's the goal, to bunch the field up just like that, and give more people close racing.

I would only expect to use ballast sometimes, certainly not all the time. It really works best for single-make seasons. Otherwise, moderate success ballast can compress the field a bit, but again, won't be used all the time. It depends on the cars used.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on November 04, 2015, 02:30:58 PM
So far I think ballast has sort of jumbled everyone up as opposed to bringing everyone closer together.  Will be interesting to see if it improves by the end of the season.  Possibly going from Zandvoort to Spa accentuated the ballast deficiencies as Zandvoort you could drive around the ballast, where as Spa really punishes you because of the long straights, and there isn't much you can do about those.

Mugello will be the real test as to where the ballast system sits as it's a mixture of a long straight and lots of twisty bits.

I do miss the reverse grid races :)

As a change up I wonder whether we could pick one car make with a few different tyre types and simply have people using the slower tyre depending on their performance.  Something like the GT86 with it's ECO, road and semi-slick tyres (i think there is one more type?), as an example.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on November 04, 2015, 05:28:06 PM
I think it has brought cars closer together. If you look at another fast car race we did at Spa, the McLaren P1/LaFerrari (http://xgnassettocorsa.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/s7r4-mclarenferrari-at-spa.html), the top 13 cars finished within 2:15 of the winner. In our last race at Spa just now (http://xgnassettocorsa.blogspot.com.au/2015/11/s9r4-formula-renault-at-spa.html), the top 13 cars finished with 1:22 of the winner. That's a lot more compressed.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on November 04, 2015, 06:22:12 PM
Yes, it has bought everyone closer, but re-arranged the field at the same time.  So the rubber band has flicked back on itself, so to speak.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on November 04, 2015, 07:38:20 PM
With the weight GB has carried so far I'm amazed he has done as well as he has, out qualifying me quite often and out racing me too. I know how hard it is to race with 135kg against guys with not much so having 170kg would be pretty brutal. But at least credit to GB he clearly isn't sandbagging at all and giving it all he has each lap. This means hes not really reducing ballast but I wonder if maybe a softening of ballast at the high end to give the quicker guys more hope of a win. As is unless others crash we really have no hope beating a guy on lower ballast able to put in laptimes that are impossible with the heavy ballast. Then in a race your quite a sitting duck so even it would be best if laptimes could be evened out including the top 2 or 3 that manage upon very low ballast and have speed others properly weighted have no hope with.

I'm not saying some people are gaming the system but clearly some are lol, I mean If I wanted to finish a couple spaces further back I could pace myself too but its clear the top 5 or 6 weights are pretty much going as hard as they can just to be able to compete. Yet some guys have a fair bit of pace in reserve if you challenge them a little. ;)

You did say more points go to the guys with more ballast, but how exactly is this as its possible some don't realize this and so may be giving up pace for less ballast which in turn gives them less points even if they get better finishes.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on November 04, 2015, 07:58:37 PM
You get 0.5 points for every whole 30 kg of ballast carried. Says so in the rules!
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Freezer on November 04, 2015, 11:32:48 PM
As is unless others crash we really have no hope beating a guy on lower ballast able to put in laptimes that are impossible with the heavy ballast.
Another perspective -
As is unless others crash we really have no hope beating a guy on lower high ballast as he is still able to put in laptimes that are impossible with the heavy lighter ballast.  :)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on November 05, 2015, 06:35:40 AM
As is unless others crash we really have no hope beating a guy on lower ballast able to put in laptimes that are impossible with the heavy ballast.
Another perspective -
As is unless others crash we really have no hope beating a guy on lower high ballast as he is still able to put in laptimes that are impossible with the heavy lighter ballast.  :)

You flatter!  I did qualify 13th and 6th though and then finished 4th thanks to crashes and then 13th, so not quick enough! :)
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: marty on November 05, 2015, 02:11:44 PM
You get 0.5 points for every whole 30 kg of ballast carried. Says so in the rules!

Thanks Wally now I dont need to read those rules.  ;D

As is unless others crash we really have no hope beating a guy on lower ballast able to put in laptimes that are impossible with the heavy ballast.
Another perspective -
As is unless others crash we really have no hope beating a guy on lower high ballast as he is still able to put in laptimes that are impossible with the heavy lighter ballast.  :)

We can switch ballast then it sure sounds like the lighter cars have it tough.  :'(

Last nite something went pop in my computer after a power surge. A not good smell followed and it wont boot. I suspect its the motherboard which is a bit of a bugger as its hard to find a replacement for older sockets. The cpu and ram are still fine though so Id rather just fix this then replace all that. Will have a reasonable second setup once I upgrade fully.

Not sure If I have a spare mainboard at home or it may have just been the psu so will need to check. But quite likely may not be up for the next round as sourcing a suitable replacement wont be easy to find.

Until Im back up Wally will need to keep up with any changes for the server. I can do stuff from the spare computer or laptop but I dont even have ac installed on those.
Title: Re: Ballast
Post by: Wally on November 05, 2015, 05:27:16 PM
Good luck getting it fixed. I've had a fried mobo once upon s time too, but I was able to replace like for like.
I'll look after the practice server.
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