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S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat

Author Topic: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat  (Read 822 times)

Online RussG

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2017, 11:14:00 PM »
Didn't get my best lap in qually, but was pretty happy with 4th. Freezer jumped in front of killa at the start and then killa and I followed Freezer all the way to the pitstop. I think we both had more pace than Freezer but he was keeping it all nice and tidy and never gave a chance.
I pitted on the same lap as Freezer and killa a lap later which allowed killa to jump Freezer in the pits. I continued to follow Freezer until the time I found myself about to run into his rear. I steered off track to avoid ramming him but there was still a bump. At least it didn't seem to upset Freezers car and he kept going, but by the time I got going again, Joe had slipped past. I caught them again and followed Freezer and Joe for a while. Then Freezer went wide at the last hairpin and Joe got past. I also got my nose in front of Freezer up the straight but I knew he was still on the inside so I left plenty of room which left me slow out of the final turn and Freezer slipped away and it also let killa cruise through.
Now I followed Freezer and killa until the incident which saw killa turned around. Then I was just cruising it home and ran long at the final hairpin which gave me the 4th cut track and 10 sec penalty dropping another place. I think I had one genuine cut track.

Got a tap from Russ toward the end which I think was a missed brake marker
I was caught by surprise with this one. I didn't THINK I missed my brake point. I wasn't sure what happened, but an LMP1 just screamed by and braked in front of Freezer so I thought it may have balked him a bit and he may have braked slightly earlier. I'm still not sure.

Well, we were on the very last laps and then RussG made an attempt to pass me on the inside of that tight right hander before that very fast sweeping left hand turn.
I was going race line a tad more than a car length behind Freezer when he hit me behind the rear wheel and turned me around.
It's disappointing being taken out like that, as I'm obviously trying to win the series.
RussG, you've asked me  whether I watch car races, yes mate, I've done that extensively...and I'm very confident that the race line was mine. You were too far behind to have a serious chance of a clean pass there. If I remember correctly I've had you only once sort of close behind me before. That was in the Escorts at Nurburgring...and you were running into me twice in two consecutive laps at the same spot. I was able to stay on track so I haven't said anything...anyway, you may understand that this worries me.
killa, what I meant by do you watch Motor racing was that you will see attempts to outbrake on the inside a lot. Some come off some don't. Usually the driver on the outside will be aware that someone is taking a stab and leave some space instead of diving for the apex.
You must remember that once someone is braking later up the inside, there is nothing more they can do. It is only the driver on the outside who can decide whether to have an accident or not.
This lap was the closest I had been and you left the door wide open with a big invitation on it. Now, I'm not saying it was a good move. What I'm saying is that there was no need for contact to have been made.

I think these videos show the action better than a picture. People can make up their own minds.



I'm sorry but I don't remember what happened at the Nurburgring in the escorts and I don't have any replays.

Anyway there was a lot of good close racing. I look forward to more of it.
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Online Mael

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2017, 11:24:37 PM »
Some times a divebomb works, other times it doesn't.   I would suspect my pass on Wally would count as a divebomb but I was lucky and got away with it. Sadly Russ did not. So take it as the rub of racing but remember that incidents should not be discussed during the race  :P   At least after the race we all get to give our opinion which is the fun part after all!

Online Freezer

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2017, 11:32:21 PM »
Freezer was coming closer to DC and me before the 'Go' from DC. I was going 126 and Freezer 132 at this point in time. There was a tiny delay in reaction time on my side, but Freezer didn't seem to have that. The result is just logical, he was passing me way before turn 1. Seems like I've made the mistake going exactly as fast as DC.
Hey Killa, 6km/h difference!  I note that coming onto the main straight the pack was gapped behind ( I think I may have even said something on the air ).  I also was moving up to get close along side and around that time I heard the gogogo and hit it.  Not disputing the 6km/h but was not intentionally trying to do anything sus.  I still think we need to slow more in the final turns to get properly in a pack.
My second gear will take me from 0 to 140km/h so there is a lot of variation there.
p.s. good racing with you...

Online Freezer

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2017, 11:46:57 PM »
killa, what I meant by do you watch Motor racing was that you will see attempts to outbrake on the inside a lot. Some come off some don't. Usually the driver on the outside will be aware that someone is taking a stab and leave some space instead of diving for the apex.
You must remember that once someone is braking later up the inside, there is nothing more they can do. It is only the driver on the outside who can decide whether to have an accident or not.
This lap was the closest I had been and you left the door wide open with a big invitation on it. Now, I'm not saying it was a good move. What I'm saying is that there was no need for contact to have been made.
You make some valid points Russ, but in say Supercars, they would want you up to the B pillar to consider it a legit dive and since you hit his rear bumper I'd say you be on for a drive through.

Offline Shameless_1

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2017, 02:21:58 AM »
Sorry Russ but I'm with Freezer on this, your car was not anywhere near far enough up the inside so he had the racing line and you should have given him the room. That's how I see it in motor racing too. Had you been further up his inside by the B pillar then the fault would have been Freezer's.
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Online killagorilla

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2017, 06:26:07 AM »
killa, what I meant by do you watch Motor racing was that you will see attempts to outbrake on the inside a lot. Some come off some don't. Usually the driver on the outside will be aware that someone is taking a stab and leave some space instead of diving for the apex.
You must remember that once someone is braking later up the inside, there is nothing more they can do. It is only the driver on the outside who can decide whether to have an accident or not.
This lap was the closest I had been and you left the door wide open with a big invitation on it. Now, I'm not saying it was a good move. What I'm saying is that there was no need for contact to have been made.

Mate, I watched the replay many times from different angles before making my post. I had to make a decision based on our speeds at that point in time and before and the distance between us. You were behind me far enough that I thought it's appropriate to take the race line. If you were closer or at least somewhat next to me I would have had to give you room. I would think it's fair to claim that if you're half a car length behind. Putting your nose there on the race line and claim this space for you is not fair.
Remember that I don't have external cameras and slow motion videos available to make a decision about what line exactly to take in that split second moment. The impacts there in the Escort at the Nurburgring were rough and significant enough to remember imo and that happening twice...I'm surprised you forgot. I just managed to keep the car under control with difficulties.
Please be more careful...hope we'll have plenty more close racing in the time ahead.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 09:21:28 AM by killagorilla »

Online Wally

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2017, 08:02:10 AM »
I agree with Freezer and Shameless that Russ wasn't far enough alongside to consider that a fair passing attempt. But I also agree with Russ that sometimes a little more awareness from the car in front can avert the accident if you can see that there's no way the divebombing car is going to be able to pull up, and you leave room. You also see Supercars drivers doing that. Sometimes the passes there look very easy, and it only because the lead car is basically conceding the corner. I'm pretty sure that's what I did with Mael's pass, leaving him room when I could see he was on the boost juice and was going to pass.


It can be a lot to take in though, when the lead car is already looking for the braking point and the apex. But the onus is always on the car behind to make the safe pass.
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Online killagorilla

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2017, 09:36:28 AM »
I think it would be good if one is interfering with someone else's racing line in a passing attempt only if there's a realistic chance to be successful. Otherwise you'd lose positions too often in close racing especially. I'm more than happy to go side by side through turns...it's fun...but leaving the ideal line open as soon as someone is sort of close doesn't work. I could have done this move to Freezer so many times in this race...no, actually most likely only once...and the result would have been me feeling shit...again :-)
Btw. The accident before with Freezer was no overtaking attempt...just me misjudging his braking.

Online RussG

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2017, 12:41:14 PM »
OK, I am talking about contact being made, not whether the initial move of someone is judged to be a good or bad move.

I know about the B pillar rule etc. I already stated: "I'm not saying it was a good move. What I'm saying is that there was no need for contact to have been made." I didn't brake so late that I couldn't make the turn. If that was the case AND killa had tried to leave space AND we still crashed, then it is definitely my fault (the contact that is). There will always be someone having a go and not being quite there, but when it happens to me I go wide and leave space and we both keep racing.  I don't want to be "racing" where nobody is allowed to have a go. In this particular case, if killa had left some space, I would have had to take such a tight line he would have driven away in front with a smile on his face.

Here is the scenario as I see it.
*   The car behind makes a split second decision when to brake and maybe the decision is a little off, but they will still make the corner.
*   The car behind is now on the braking limit, and there is no more they can do.
*   The car on the outside now has a choice.
        1. Go at the apex and have a crash.
        2. Leave some space, don't crash and keep racing.

I always choose option 2.
In fact I chose option 2 earlier in the race when I got in front of Freezer when Joe passed him. I knew he was still there somewhere so I intentionally went wide at the last turn to avoid any chance of contact. This left me coming on to the straight slow and is how killa also managed to pass me. If I had claimed it was my corner and went for the apex I am certain we would have crashed.
I have noted other drivers who also take option 2 but we never hear about those :)

I don't want this to become too big a thing and I hope we can all have some more good "racing" in the future.
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Online Wally

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2017, 01:25:13 PM »
Discussions like this are always great. But this is one of those perennial grey areas, which will always be a judgement call that could fall one way or the other. I'm sure everyone has their own style and level of aggression in situations like this - that's what makes racing against other people interesting.
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Online killagorilla

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2017, 01:50:26 PM »
RussG, I'm happy to just look at it from a technical point of view and if that helps avoiding just one single collision with any of us than it's worth the time for me.
I would like to bring up one aspect and see what's your opinion on it. As I stated before I was on the limit and I decided going race line because I thought you'd just stick out your nose there but not really go for it.
This is the fastest line I'm talking about. If I had decided taking a different line I would have had to brake earlier in order to make it through the turn without leaving the track. Well, braking early in this particular situation wouldn't have been in my favour I guess. It would have been counter productive.
The other question is, how to judge the amount of space...a full car width? No way that would have been possible there without drastic speed reduction. You would have gone through. The problem is I simply couldn't see you and judge how much space you may need. You see Freezer and me in the picture - see the angle we're going compared to the way you are positioned on the track?
I don't say you're wrong with playing it safe and leave a bit of space to avoid a crash...not at all. I'm just of the opinion that this idea is difficult to apply in this case. Looking back I should have gone defense line.
If someone is beside me going into a turn there is no choice, you slow down and hope getting a chance slipping through the inside at the exit.

Online Freezer

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2017, 02:21:18 PM »
There is a key difference here.  Russ and me side by side, so we both left each other room at the last turn.
Killa and Russ NOT side by side so Killa has the line.
You said yourself Russ it was not a good move . . . and that about sums it up.  A little bit too keen and it didn't come off . . it happens!

Online grat

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2017, 07:22:45 PM »
Hi guys, if I can give my two cents here... I like aggressive racing, but the rule (though spelled differently in different categories) is always aimed at determining whether the passing car had overlap at turn in. If yes, then it is the passed car's job to leave space and see if you can make the corner. If not, then you should not have made the move and can't really complain if contact happens after it.

In the specific case:
  • Killa chooses not to protect the inside. His choice. I would have done that, on a last lap, but he is completely free to "leave the door open" and it's up to Ross to choose what to do
  • Russ has no overlap at turn in. Therefore, whatever happens next, his pass attempt was temerarious and he would be penalized in most categories. I don't blame him---it's a last lap attempt, the door was open, and he tried to pull a Ricciardo move. I like his bravery, but if it does not work (i.e., if you can't get overlap at turn in) then it's your fault ;)
  • Killa could have given up the corner and let Russ go long and cross the lines. True, and it would have been the smart choice, because Russ was going to make the corner, but his exit would have been horribly compromised. But how can you blame him for going for the apex? It was his right and he was free to choose it. If it did not work out, it is just bad for him, but that's it

All in all, were we professionals, Russ would be penalized and Killa would regret having gone for the apex. Being amateurs, I think we can just have Russ say "sorry, mate" and Killa say "no worries." :)

Online Gratulin

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2017, 07:30:11 PM »
Hi guys, if I can give my two cents here... I like aggressive racing, but the rule (though spelled differently in different categories) is always aimed at determining whether the passing car had overlap at turn in. If yes, then it is the passed car's job to leave space and see if you can make the corner. If not, then you should not have made the move and can't really complain if contact happens after it.

In the specific case:
  • Killa chooses not to protect the inside. His choice. I would have done that, on a last lap, but he is completely free to "leave the door open" and it's up to Ross to choose what to do
  • Russ has no overlap at turn in. Therefore, whatever happens next, his pass attempt was temerarious and he would be penalized in most categories. I don't blame him---it's a last lap attempt, the door was open, and he tried to pull a Ricciardo move. I like his bravery, but if it does not work (i.e., if you can't get overlap at turn in) then it's your fault ;)
  • Killa could have given up the corner and let Russ go long and cross the lines. True, and it would have been the smart choice, because Russ was going to make the corner, but his exit would have been horribly compromised. But how can you blame him for going for the apex? It was his right and he was free to choose it. If it did not work out, it is just bad for him, but that's it

All in all, were we professionals, Russ would be penalized and Killa would regret having gone for the apex. Being amateurs, I think we can just have Russ say "sorry, mate" and Killa say "no worries." :)
Good post Grat even though I had to look up temerarious  8) 8) but that's what big bros are for - to teach you stuff  ;D

Online Wally

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Re: S19R6: Shanghai Race Post-Chat
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2017, 07:50:08 AM »

temerarious
ˌtɛməˈrɛːrɪəs/

adjective literary

reckless; rash.
"a young officer of a brave and even temerarious disposition"

Grat and his thesaurus...
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