Xtreme Gaming Network
Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Australian Assetto Corsa League, Tuesday nights => Topic started by: Wally on July 06, 2016, 09:01:08 PM
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Hey Marty, can you put one of your servers up with the Japanese cars that are a candidate for the next season, and leave it up for a while to gather times for comparison? With set conditions, say 26 degrees, clear and 100% grip, at a fairly "balanced" AC track which is neither too fast nor too slow, so no car is unfairly advantaged. Maybe Brands Hatch Indy? Or Imola?
Then it would be good if people could just rack up as many laps as possible in a variety of cars to see either if some cars should be excluded, or given some equalising ballast.
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Ok done I have an ABC rated server for Imola with all the Jap pack cars, all xgn users should also be on the whitelist for this server as they are all my servers. Any xgn guys unable to get into any marty's server or the tuesday practice server send me a pm with your GUID and I will make sure your added to the list.
The server is optimal grip with 26/36 temps running a short qualy of 12 min and 6 lap race. If anyone wants to extend the session lengths you should be able to in server with the stracker commands.
/st session qtime 15
would make the next qual session 15 minutes.
/st rlaps 10 would make the next race 10 laps long.
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Thanks.
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Here is the stracker stats for that server, quite a few laps had been run in these cars earlier with less grip and street tyres, I then changed it to a ballast server but the MX5 cup I didnt have in before. Honestly I still hope we dont have the mx5 cup in the season as its just too different and would be a great car for a single car season some other time possibly.
Later I will move them to a smaller track as Imola does hurt the cars a bit under power more then a smaller track. The RX7 will likely be quickest by a bit but I was surprised the pace I got out of the 370. Those laps were very close to as good as I could do and in the Rx7 Cherno only did a few and all mine were very messy far from feeling in control of that car. I did just run some laps in the Supra and that really doesnt have much more in it. The R34 probably has a bit but I was experimenting with pressures not believing Wally's app. But maybe it should have 40psi hot which just seems wrong to me but lower pressures seem to make it quite a bit slower in the straights.
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Missing link Marty?
Yes, it would be good to use a smaller track too. I agree that the MX5 might be out of place, even though people enjoyed it in the fun runs we had. Good for a single make series.
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Oops forgot to press the paste button. :-[
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?currservers=acserver3
Actually seems that link shows only laps in this server not past laps in this combo as seen ingame. I did have a look at the rsr times and noticed the Supra did 2:06.6 so I tried it in hotlap mode. It was possibe to do that time but thats with tyre warmers and on the first lap when tyres are at 100%. At first I couldnt see that time possible and Thats 1.3 seconds faster then I could do in the server, so rsr can show more the ultimate pace but this server should show more what people can get in race conditions. You cant really compare the 2 directly.
That server has no tyre warmers and it really takes more then 2 laps to get temps up and by the the tyres have lost a bit. Also RSR is a bit stricter on track limits then the server which is set to 2 tyres out to try and keep times legit without excessive track limits abuse as Imola can lead to that. Even with tyre warmers the cars are quickest on lap 1 and only hotlap mode lets you get a flying lap on the first one so that nearly always makes it quicker. I will run each of the cars in server and hotlap mode in rsr, I think the time gaps will be much the same between them but hotlap mode will be around 1.5 sec faster in each I think.
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I have averaged the top 5 times for each car from these lap stats:
RX7 2:06.6 (30 times total)
370z 2:07.3 (27 times)
Skyline 2:09.8 (18 times)
Supra 2:10.6 (11 times)
MX5 2:14.4 (15 times)
We'll see what comes out of the server running a track like Brands Hatch Indy too.
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Marty 2:04.7 in the RX7?!?!?!? I think you found the trick to break through into the faster times!
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Marty 2:04.7 in the RX7?!?!?!? I think you found the trick to break through into the faster times!
I have put setups for all the cars in the server but may need to update some as I ran all in rsr hotlap mode too. The key to most of them is under braking not to smash the pedal, if you go too hard it shifts too much weight to the front and then makes the cars a fair way off balance. Rx7 probably suffers the most from this but all the cars being a fair bit lighter on the brakes is much quicker. You just need the cars to be stable on entry then get on the power as quick as possible. The rx7 also has very little power in the lower rpm range so coming in too hot and losing speed at the apex can cost big chunks of time. Pretty much the cars need to be driven as smooth as possible and some sections I just about coast in to make sure not to unsettle the cars.
Also thats the server times, I tried all cars in hotlap mode also same settings, 26/36 optimum grip RSR pro mode only factory abs, however as RSR is broken and not recording temps they dont show up but was the same as the server. Possibly also with no tyre warmers the tyres may get a tiny bit of graining as they warmup taking the edge off it in the server times plus traffic really doesn't help getting in an optimal laptime.
http://www.radiators-champ.com/RSRLiveTiming/index.php?page=driver_profile&id=2811
2:03.9 in the supra ;) running solo with tyre warmers on the first lap is considerably quicker if you put in a good lap on the first lap as the tyres are at 100% there.
The only car I couldn't quite get the best rsr time is the mx5 cup, had the sectors for it by a few tenths but couldn't combine the first and last pb sectors or close in the same lap. I do kind of suck in the MX5 cup though and I think its the trickiest car to nail a lap in.
Of the other cars here the r34 is the hardest to go quick, it just doesnt quite turn in as well, is a bit down on power and also probably the heaviest of the lot so braking not its strength either. It really needs a turbo boost and it would easily match the 370 or rx7 much the same as the supra. It would be nice if instead of ballast we could simply give more power to the slower 2 cars as these are very rarely driven as stock anyway.
I will do some more testing in the server with ballast to try get the 2 faster cars to match the 2 slower ones, then later will move the server to Brands Indy with no ballast and see what times people can get there. Then I will try the ballast levels from Imola to see if it would be possible to use the same ballast on a long or short track and get the cars close to each other. I think ideally we would want to run all 4 cars and potentially get all 4 to be able to do the same laptime, this would mean there is no real disadvantage to choosing either car. As is currently the rx7 is clearly quickest but the 370 a bit easier to drive and not miles away, the other 2 with equal drivers in both would be a fair way behind.
I am just uploading a video atm comparing all 5 of my RSR laps to show how the cars compare and will add it in once its up in a few minutes.
Race wise I tried the mx5 cup in a few yesterday and it can be fun but has no hope really, on a shorter track it may dominate but here it is just way too slow. There really isnt any way of making that car even amongst these as its very much a different class even if laptimes arent miles apart in it.
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| RX-7 Spirit R | 02:05.7 |
| 370z Nismo | 02:06.3 |
| Supra MKIV | 02:08.7 |
| Skyline GTR R34 V-Spec | 02:08.9 |
This is the average of the best 5 times for each car. It's looking like a bit of ballast for the Rx-7 and a little less for the 370z to bring them closer to the Supra and the Skyline might be the go.
A bit of a ballast test would be good Marty. Can you make those stats show up separately to all of these unballasted times?
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Yes with stracker you can then easily compare ballast laps, can use the lap graph and it also shows ballast used. I did have ballast on the cars at this track with street tyres and I think I had 160kg on the rx7 with maybe 130kg on the 370. Also once I find ballast levels that work for me I can set these in the server and you can easily get data only from a certain date and so it can show only ballasted laps by all once its added.
Repeating the process at a short track should give a reasonable idea, I noticed I ran laps at brands GP in 3 of them and there
rx7 1:40.991
370z 1:41.910
R34 GTR 1:42.549
MX5 cup 1:40.361
The MX5 cup really likes the high speed flowing corners and not very long straights, but also the record in that is 1:39.341 top speed of 194 vs 206 in the rx7. This is mostly as the mx5 on slicks and light weight carries so much speed through the sweeping corners also needing barely any braking compared to the heavier street cars.
In stracker if you go to laptimes and click the + sign you can load up all servers stats, pick some other cars and compare laps that may have been done. However most of the other laps would be lower grip and varied conditions so not exactly great comparisons. Also if you click any lap and press manual compare then click any other lap it will compare the lap trace for the cars. If you simply click any slower lap it should show the lap trace for the fastest in the server too.
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Here is the video comparing the 5 cars, easier to compare 4 on one screen but 5 I squeezed in there.
https://youtu.be/-iZ03RWiIIE
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Coolio.
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Ive come up with some ballast numbers to get the rx7 and 370 to mid 2:07's for me and that is 155kg to the rx7 (possibly needs a few more kg but will test how others go with it) the 370z has 110kg and the others have none as they were already rather close.
There will be a new link to the data for this server as I have renamed the stracker server, the original link will show all the old times. I suspect the server wont be as popular once people jump into the quicker cars and see they dont get much advantage. It will be interesting to see how it effects people but for me I was still a few tenths quicker in the rx7 then I was aiming for able to get 2:07.364 at 155kg.
This link should show this lap comparing to the no ballast lap in the rx7.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapdetails?lapid=79140#
This will be the link to the new laps with ballast set.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?currservers=acserver3Ballast
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Great stuff Marty. Those ballast amounts look balanced as I would have expected. It's just a matter of seeing how close times are now with those weights.
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The tricky thing with Imola is it seems you can always find some more time. Of the few we tested last nite best times were within .4 in those only the r34 wasnt really ran by the quicker guys. I originallly dropped a little balllast on the 370 but then when yorap came in kept bumping it up and ended up back at 110 and he was still in the low 6's was similar to what we did in the rx7 and the supra so just need to test the r34. I was hoping to aim them for 2:07.0 but seems if someone is pushing you along then there is always more time to find lol. Where is Guybrush when you need him. I also needed to blacklist a couple guys seems to be the issue once you allow c graders in.
The server wont show ballast levels for those not running ptracker but all laps on the new link are with those ballast numbers. I did drop the 370 to 90kg but put it back to 110 and all the quicker laps were set with that.
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I just did a 2:10.5 in both the 370z (115 kg) and the Skyline, so those two cars are balanced for me, personally. It's looking pretty good.
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Thats a good sign as its the quickest car and slowest so if those are equal and ive been fairly close in the other 3 it should work fairly well at thise levels at this type of track at least.
I think next week when I move it to Brands Indy maybe keep the ballast and see how people gothen maybe adjust it if needed.
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Been doing some laps with them around BHI and so far I'm way quicker in the Skyline (still nearly 1sec of WR pace). Yet to put a lot of time into the others but about to hit the track in the rest.
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The one car thats a bit concerning is the r34 for me at Imola, still Im only .7 off the Supra and rx7 (ballasted) so its not far off. Having a look at rsr it still shows that the 370 and rx7 are clearly ahead of the other 2 but not many laps in these so kind of hard to say.
I think I will initialy keep the same ballast from Imola and put all these up at Brands Indy to see what people get with all those. I will change the server over later tonight but will first run some laps in the 370, I did run ballast laps on the original server with it when setting ballast but hadnt run any times in the current server name.
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Yeah, I'm now a touch quicker in the 370. Can't even get the RX-7 around there yet... ::) Need to work on a set as it's tail happy for me. ;)
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I'll get some averaged stats off the BOP server tonight too. For me, I was quickest in the Supra, and about the same in the other 3. But there will always be variation according to what car just suits you best, as all 4 cars feel reasonably different to drive.
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In stracker you can get more info simply by pressing the + icon if you havent noticed yet Wally. I simply renamed the server to seperate ballasted laps and non ballasted laps.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_mazda_rx7_spirit_r,ks_nissan_370z,ks_nissan_skyline_r34,ks_toyota_supra_mkiv&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=
That link will show all combined laps, the Acserver3 will be all the open laps and ACserver3 Ballasted will be ballasted laps, mostly because it only shows ballast amounts for the people running ptracker. If someone doesn't run ptracker it wont show their ballast level on the lap so thats why I did it this way. Its a shame that apps cant directly get all the info that the official apps run, seeing the leaderboard app shows all drivers ballast and tyres live this info sent to stracker would be very handy but apparently its not there so ptracker needs to send this info.
Even when the server is changed over to Brands Indy you can still easily get old data by simply selecting current server and just change the track back to Imola.
I do feel the Supra at Imola was fractionally the quickest and racing it against others with ballasted Rx7 or 370 it had a bit of a top speed advantage. In the next test I will start with current ballast levels but I suspect the Supra may need 15 to 20kg but on a twistier track the supra is probably the worst handling car so its speed is more an advantage anywhere it can open up.
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I will move this server up to Brands Indy now as I just did some laps in the 370z'
Times for me in the server with ballast are
Rx7 2:06.412 145kg
Supra 2:06.583 0kg
370z 2:06.736 115kg
R34 GTR 2:07.344 0kg (but have a pb of 2:06.822)
So for me at these levels there was only .4 between the 4 cars so Id say thats fairly close. I will move it to Brands Indy keeping the same ballasts to start with and see how they go there. I think it should still stay fairly close but the R34 may more likely be closer to the quickest car there as that track should suit it fairly well.
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Interesting to see. I have a .3s spread between the Nissan;s and the RX-7 with the Supra .6 - .9s behind. That's without ballast.
Just bottling a batch of brew but will get on the server for some laps in an hour or so... ;)
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I have put the server up at Brands Indy with the same ballasts as from Imola.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?currservers=acserver3Ballast
For me initial runs seem fairly close with .227 between all 4 and the gtr, rx7 and supra only .020 between them. ;D
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What I will do in the season, is to mandate that if you start in the 370 or the RX7, you must swap to either the skyline or the supra in the second half, and vice versa. This does two things:
Spices it up a bit,
And lessens the effect of any ballast anomalies.
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What I will do in the season, is to mandate that if you start in the 370 or the RX7, you must swap to either the skyline or the supra in the second half, and vice versa. This does two things:
Spices it up a bit,
And lessens the effect of any ballast anomalies.
Sounds like a good plan Wally, it does look like Brands with the ballast 145kg rx7 and 115kg 370 brings all 3 quite close together. At Imola with these the Supra was probably the quickest but at Brands it took me the most laps in the Supra to get into the similar ballpark. The r34 GTR is the easiest car there to get pace but it will also cook left front tyres thanks to being abused on exits and entry with most high speed corners being right handers there. On a longer open track the R34 will likely struggle the most but get something with shorter straights and more corners it will be quite a weapon.
Mixing tracks during the season with some quicker and slower ones in both halves of the season should also spice things up a bit especially people going the r34, as this car with the lowest top speed will always struggle on any longer straights.
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Here are the average times for each ballasted car at Imola, for all laps within 5% of the fastest time:
| RX-7 Spirit R | 02:09.7 |
| 370z Nismo | 02:09.8 |
| Supra MKIV | 02:07.6 |
| Skyline GTR R34 V-Spec | 02:09.5 |
Going by these averages at least, the Supra is a little quick. The other 3 look spot on.
Mixing tracks during the season with some quicker and slower ones in both halves of the season should also spice things up a bit especially people going the r34, as this car with the lowest top speed will always struggle on any longer straights.
Yeah, I will always aim to do that whenever there's a "split" season where you have to change cars.
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Here are the average times for each ballasted car at Imola, for all laps within 5% of the fastest time:
| RX-7 Spirit R | 02:09.7 |
| 370z Nismo | 02:09.8 |
| Supra MKIV | 02:07.6 |
| Skyline GTR R34 V-Spec | 02:09.5 |
Going by these averages at least, the Supra is a little quick. The other 3 look spot on.
Mixing tracks during the season with some quicker and slower ones in both halves of the season should also spice things up a bit especially people going the r34, as this car with the lowest top speed will always struggle on any longer straights.
Yeah, I will always aim to do that whenever there's a "split" season where you have to change cars.
I think Supra was maybe .2 quick there but at Brands it is clearly the slowest though by only .3 to the fastest. I dont really agree with averaging the best 5% especially as the Supra had the least amount of people running laps.
All Supra laps in that server. Only 9 people set a time and of that only 4 did more then 4 laps.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=ks_brands_hatch-indy&cars=ks_toyota_supra_mkiv&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast
Mazda Rx7 had 17 people set a lap.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_mazda_rx7_spirit_r&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast&page=0
20 in the Nissan 370z
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_nissan_370z&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast
18 in the GTR
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_nissan_skyline_r34&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast
Then best laps in each car.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_mazda_rx7_spirit_r,ks_nissan_370z,ks_nissan_skyline_r34,ks_toyota_supra_mkiv&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast&ranking=2
.3 between the top 3 and GTR 1.2 off but only .7 going off my best lap there.
At Brands I tried hard in the Supra and couldnt get it under 54 but at 54.012 vs 53.715 in the supra and quite a few have already run there there is not much in them.
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Will get back on later for some more laps. Did 1 session and had to call it quits last night.
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We've discussed the methodology many times before. You can't just look at the fastest laps, because what if YoRap is an alien who sets times in all cars but the Supra? You'd conclude, wrongly, that the Supra was the much slower car.
You can't just look at one person's laps in all 4 cars either. That one person might have a knack of being able to drive the Skyline the fastest, and you'd conclude, wrongly, that the Skyline was the fastest car.
You have to average the top percentage of times (to exclude all the unrealistic half arsed laps at the tail end). That also gives you a better indication that the spread of times in a league will be close, not just the most skilled guys.
You can only go by the data you've got. If we only have 9 Supra times, then that's what we've got. 9 laps is still better than 1 lap.
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I'll get a heap of laps in today in all the cars (crappy weather and can't do much else). BTW all my times on RSR have been with AI out on track. Trying to keep it realistic..... ;)
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I had the wrong link for the supra at imola
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_toyota_supra_mkiv&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast
Using the top 5% times just doesnt work in that case, there is no way the car is 2 seconds faster.
Here is the data showing only the best lap per driver so it shows what car people were quickest in.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_mazda_rx7_spirit_r,ks_nissan_370z,ks_nissan_skyline_r34,ks_toyota_supra_mkiv&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast&ranking=1
This isnt showing that the supra is clearly quickest for most people with only 2 of the top 15 being in the Supra showing that method isnt giving a true indication if it was 2 seconds faster then anyone would easily set their quickest time in the car I think.
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I'll get a heap of laps in today in all the cars (crappy weather and can't do much else). BTW all my times on RSR have been with AI out on track. Trying to keep it realistic..... ;)
All the server laps of mine were with other people on track with many laps limited by traffic so fairly realistic. Get more then 10 people on that short track no tyre warmers and it takes 4 to 6 laps to get the tyres up to speed. Then the odds of getting no traffic on the lap is fairly tricky, the only car I ran on RSR was in hotlap mode with tyre warmers and this would be .3 or so quicker at least as you can set pressures for first laps and not deal with traffic get a lap in with fresher tyres.
If you do it during the day it will likely be quiet and I can extend the qualy session time if you want on that server.
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That would be great. And you're right, less peeps who want to go straight to race during the day. Was only on for a few seconds last night when they started rolling in.. :)
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I had the wrong link for the supra at imola
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_toyota_supra_mkiv&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast
Using the top 5% times just doesnt work in that case, there is no way the car is 2 seconds faster.
Here is the data showing only the best lap per driver so it shows what car people were quickest in.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_mazda_rx7_spirit_r,ks_nissan_370z,ks_nissan_skyline_r34,ks_toyota_supra_mkiv&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast&ranking=1
This isnt showing that the supra is clearly quickest for most people with only 2 of the top 15 being in the Supra showing that method isnt giving a true indication if it was 2 seconds faster then anyone would easily set their quickest time in the car I think.
How many of those people put in a decent Supra lap? If they didn't do a hot lap in the Supra at all, then it's a meaningless comparison.
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Its the same comparison of the same 9 people that did a lap in the Supra from the total data in all the cars ;) The same data that comes up with the supra 2 seconds faster then the other cars.
Looking at the actual data Yorap did 2:06.116 in Supra and 2:06.213 in the 370 so he is just .097 quicker in the Supra and this is also the overall best time. RX7 I am .296 off that Supra time of Yoraps with 2:06.412 and I am .171 slower in the Supra 2:06.583 and another .153 2:06.736 in the 370.
Howzat who is 3rd fastest in the Supra with 2:08.052 has done 2:07.718 in the rx7 so his gap is .334 to the Rx7
Wally is 2:09.621 in the Supra which is your fastest, then 2:10.477 in the r34 so .856 slower in it with your times in the other cars within .3
This shows that only 2 people are actually quicker in the Supra who have driven more then 1 car you and Yorap with the biggest gap of .856 and this can just simply be a better lap or your more comfortable with the car. The 5% method showed it as 2 seconds faster on average yet it is only .097 quicker in the fastest times and the largest gap anyone has in its favor is yours showing I would discount that calculation.
The sample size is a bit bigger then RSR data but still not quite enough to look at overall averages too much I think. Best to look at relative gaps in individual drivers and overall best times, the server has 4 cars to choose so people can run whichever they like most. The fact that not many are actually quickest in the Supra just makes that calculation seem bugged to me. The other thing is Imola is quite a tricky track to get a solid lap in, very easy to loose time and so unless someone has nailed a lap or done a considerable amount of them its hard to say if they are close to their actual potential yet.
I do like to see how all people stack up in the cars but also the top times are quite telling If my best time in the slowest car is only .766 off the best time in the server then I think they arent too far off. Also the car that should be showing the largest gap is the r34 as its had the most laps in the server yet is the slowest overall. Im taking into account my actual PB in the same conditions but not one in the server to even bring the r34 back into the ballpark there. It is actually 1.2 slower on best overall yet your 5% figure shows the Supra 2 seconds faster and the other 3 within a tenth or so.
Here is the best lap in each car and Laps column shows total laps done in each car.
http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?track=imola&cars=ks_mazda_rx7_spirit_r,ks_nissan_370z,ks_nissan_skyline_r34,ks_toyota_supra_mkiv&valid=1,2&date_from=&date_to=&currservers=acserver3Ballast&ranking=2
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Its the same comparison of the same 9 people that did a lap in the Supra from the total data in all the cars ;) The same data that comes up with the supra 2 seconds faster then the other cars.
I shall ponder when I can look at this off my phone :)
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I understand why you do the top 5% but it really needs a larger sample size to really work, I did run quite a few laps in the servers as that way more join and it gets a larger data set but it shows that we dont quite have enough for all the cars. The cool thing with stracker once you start digging in to the + section you can gather lots of info. You can manually compare any 2 laps and see where the cars differ.
Here is Yoraps lap in the Supra vs 370 with ballast, this also shows why the Supra has the slight edge as it has more top speed.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8367/u1zrhfp44tsukdc4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/u1zrhfp44tsukdc/yorap_370vsupra.JPG)
Here is me in the RX7 vs Supra
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2183/xd84r4jk76v78064g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/xd84r4jk76v7806/Marty_RX7_vs_Supra.JPG)
Wally Supra vs GTR
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e595/ljapbvb8l08w05i4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/ljapbvb8l08w05i/Wally_Supra_vs_GTR.JPG)
Wally RX7 vs Supra (this shows you made an error into t1 and so probably cost that 1 second just there.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7e13/7l9yah347yzncn04g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7l9yah347yzncn0/Wally_RX7_vs_Supra.JPG)
Me in RX7 vs Yorap in Supra
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/7125/3uc6lbt30pj2u1a4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3uc6lbt30pj2u1a/Marty_rx7_Yorap_SUpra.JPG)
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Here is no ballast with me in the RX7, Supra and 370z
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2c03/rm6z97e2oi7bv9m4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/rm6z97e2oi7bv9m/Marty_no_ballast.JPG)
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It's all very, very close and looking like it will be fine. All I'm trying to avoid is that any car is under or over-ballasted and turns into a dog or an unfair advantage.
I didn't get my best RX7 lap in. I was quite a bit up on my best time when I ran out of fuel, and just left it at that.
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The main reason I am doing the testing is to hope each car has the same chance of being competitive, still some will find one easier to drive then others and the extra ballast does make the heavier cars a bit more awkward but it brings them back to the pack. If the ballast is done correctly and atm it looks fairly close then people should be able to pick any car and if they get the most out of it should be able to post similar lap times. These cars also arent too far apart in how they get their times but in order to take 3 seconds off the rx7 it does need quite a bit of weight.
When Redbull ring comes out I will move this server over there as it should be popular and its also a track that does favour horsepower so it will be interesting to see if the GTR is still competitive there at these levels. There are still a few weeks left before the next season so this test can be run at a few locations and we should get a reasonable idea. From my tests at Brands they are really close but I think the rx7 and 370 will still be slightly the quickest there, the GTR is easiest to get pace but also eats front tyres quickest. The Supra is quick but not the greatest handling so getting a laptime out of it is probably the most challenging.
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Yep, we're both trying to achieve the same thing.
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Good to see the Jap pack server getting a fair bit of use with around 2000 valid laps just in the brands indy combo with ballast.
Here are the total amount of laps driven in all cars by everyone in the server and the fastest in each with ballast.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e940/g2rwl5i94jnmw0y4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/g2rwl5i94jnmw0y/balllast_server_times.JPG)
I also ran each car in SP hotlap mode to set a time with no ballast.
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/fc34/44bywdmyj4m0zg64g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/44bywdmyj4m0zg6/RSR_brands_jap_pack.JPG)
The 370z is just not quite geared well for a few critical corners so it doesnt quite get as good a lap as it would with a taller 2nd or shorter 3rd gear.
The ballast looks rather close here but I will see how they stack up at redbull ring, with one more week to go I think we can run both the short and long versions there and get an idea. The long version will likely hurt the GTR the most but the short version they will hopefully be fairly close there too.
Being a new DLC track it may get some running but possibly it will be more popular with the new cars rather then these. I will keep it ABC for these and make the new cars all AB there to encourage more to run laps in these still.
This is quite a short track and the cars are fairly close even with ballast, not sure if the rx7 is actually much quicker with ballast maybe it was just a better lap there as in a race the pace in all 4 I am quite close.
Most people are fairly close in all the cars except the Supra is still in general the slowest here but also has had the least amount of laps.
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I'll get some more laps in with the Supra soon. Had a blast with QC earlier in the RX-7 which isn't really my go to car.... :)
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Well for me, you have the ballast spot on. I think I'm about .1s between all 4 cars. Helps when you have QC and Cherno pushing the crap out of you. Hehehe. ;D ;)
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It's looking to me like the ballast is looking pretty good. We'll do the red bull experiment too. There's always going to be variation between people and tracks, so with the reverse grid format (I reckon I'll do the reverse by season standings thing, Marty), the racing should be close and excellent.
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Here are my times so far:
RX-7, 55.358
370z, 55.699
Supra, 56.206
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Noticed you on bright and early.. :)
Anyone having downshift issues in the Skyline? Not shifting down sometimes for me. No issues with the others. Will do some more laps in it later in the morning.
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Noticed you on bright and early.. :)
Anyone having downshift issues in the Skyline? Not shifting down sometimes for me. No issues with the others. Will do some more laps in it later in the morning.
You must be using paddles, no issue with the shifter but also I don't think I have ever had any gearbox or engine damage in the sim car. I did miss an up shift once in my r33 that cost a gearbox however as there is no such thing as shift protection in one of those. I was a bit more cautious driving a friends r34 however and didn't push the gear changes anywhere near as much. :)
Regarding these cars at this track, pretty much as with all the speed isnt in entering corners too fast. The only corner here thats a bit of a nothing corner is t2 all the others are quite technical and easy to lose more time then you can gain by overdriving them. Im kind of suprised nobody has gone quicker then my times yet, I have setups for all cars in ptracker and they should be a good start. Not sure if all are exactly current but not too far off and start pressures are quite tricky. Here is my little track guide which may help some people get a bit more speed out of the track as I have seen quite a few throwing away time by overdriving a couple sections.
T1 I brake quite early I think its the II marker on the left from the left side of the road, a fairly easy brake application to avoid unsettling the car too much as you dont want the rear end to get too light so do most braking in a straight line. There is also a downshift needed here so best to do that while going fairly straight then its almost a bit of coast towards the apex, once the nose is pointed where you want you can give it power before the apex and if the car is nicely balanced on entry you can get close to full throttle from here. Need to avoid running wide and the rwd cars will be prone to getting loose so may need a correction or slight lift. If its pushing wide then it needs a fairly big lift to avoid getting a wheel in the sand. That corner I think is 3rd gear in all these cars for me.
T2 quite a simple basic long hairpin 2nd gear in all cars, no need to outbrake yourself and also wait a bit for the throttle on exit. If you get a nice entry you should have a couple wheels on the inside curb and then once past the apex you should be able to power out and straighten over the exit curb.
T3 is a very tricky corner this varies between 2nd and 3rd gear in these cars, you cant brake too late but with a downshift the rear can easily get loose. This corner you need to take a bit of the left curb I see most people run way wide on entry and then even wider on exit, the best exit is only the right wheels on the exit curb going 4 wheels wide is slow and unsettles the car too much for the next section.
T4 another key corner but for different reasons, this one in a few of the cars I am on the limiter in 3rd on entry with a small lift. You want to keep the left wheels on the curb here and hold a tight line to avoid pushing wide compromising the entry into the next corner. You dont want wheels over the curbs edge as it will unsettle the car quite a bit but carry just enough speed as you can to keep the tight line. It is possible to go flat on this turn in all cars but its considerably slower especially if your in a taller 4th gear as up the hill it will lose speed. The car will get unsettled and you will be out of control for the next 2 corners if you mess this one up. A tiny lift on entry to get the nose in then you should be flat from here.
T5 is flat and you can take a bit of inside curb in some cars but dont take too much as it will unsettle the car into the next key brake point.
T6 has multiple lines and t4-5 lines will determine which is best here, You can go the wide entry but also a tight entry from the middle of the road may be quicker in some cars. If the tyres arent quite up to temp and pressure especially the left front then the car will understeer on entry then grab and quite often be very loose on exit with power. In racing others this is one of the key pass opportunities but mostly because they went flat from t4 and are out of control by the brake point of t6. They then miss the apex and leave enough room for a bus here, a slightly wider line can be quick but ideal line is hugging the inside curb and on exit just avoid running too wide.
All cars here take 4 to 6 laps to get tyres to temps and pressure so you need to be aware of this, the car will just get better as you get the tyres closer to working temps. Also if overheating or getting over or under pressure on the left rear it will tend to get very loose at t1, if the left front is over or under then it will understeer quite a bit there and also into t6. Right front is critical for t3 as until this is up to temp and pressure that corner is quite a bit slower.
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No paddles but have my G27 shifter rigged as sequential. Never had the same issue with another car. Just eating and I'm jumping on for some more laps... :)
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I remember some other cars that only allowed you to shift down if you were going slow enough for the gear. Think it was the GTR... can't remember now...
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No paddles but have my G27 shifter rigged as sequential. Never had the same issue with another car. Just eating and I'm jumping on for some more laps... :)
How do you make a g27 shifter sequential? also if using sequential in game it will be the same as using paddles so there will be some added shift delay and quite likely shift protection. You really don't want to shift down at such high RPM anyway as this just causes wheels to lock a little and in the r34 it also adds understeer as all 4 wheels lock for a little on too aggressive a down shift.
I have never tried paddles or sequential on a manual car in AC so I don't know if it adds auto lift and blip, this would be likely along with shift protection. Realistically if there was no downshift protection then it would just lunch a gearbox every time you try to shift at too high an rpm. Quit a few modern cars now have pre selection of gears. You press the paddle and if the rpm is too high it will just delay the shift until you get into a safe range, fairly sure the r35 has this but again in other peoples cars I don't tend to abuse them as much as my own. :)
Cars that don't have that will just reject gear changes and that can be quite an awkward feeling but In games sims everyone abuses the crap out of everything and if you noticed how violent a way too early downshift is in reality you probably would do it less in games too or at least I tend to.
I think there was an f1 era that had multi preselect gearboxes so full semi auto, on the downshift you just flicked the paddles as many times as you want then it will give the perfect rpm for each downshift. I dont think this is permitted any more as most of the cool tech has been banned and they have added weird more complicated stuff to the cars. Like what we are getting in the new DLC with the 2015 Ferrari, a season in this would have less runners in the last round I think then the current lotus/ferrari season.
I suspect that will be like driving the 312t or 72D while trying to write a python app, quite a challenge but I would be up for a season in it just not sure how many others would.
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Strong rubber bands. It comes from my V8Supercars days and I've never changed it. Never liked the feel of the H pattern anyway. Sorry about the poor quality pic. Webcam's as old as me. ;)
Turns out I had to give it way more rpm on the blip and all is good. Don't like the car though. I have auto lift/blip turned off and do my own.
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Strong rubber bands. It comes from my V8Supercars days and I've never changed it. Never liked the feel of the H pattern anyway. Sorry about the poor quality pic. Webcam's as old as me. ;)
Turns out I had to give it way more rpm on the blip and all is good. Don't like the car though. I have auto lift/blip turned off and do my own.
yepo, that's it, I have seen more elaborate methods, but this is the most effective/reversible, not to mention "cheap", opps I mentioned it!
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Can't believe I've done 655 laps on your server Marty. Can't be right surely. ::) ;D
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Seems all cars are real close here, main issue for the Supra especialy is heating tyres as the 2 ballasted cars with the extra weight generate some more heat. The r34 with awd generates front temps quick so next track I wil add tyre blankets.
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Tyre blankets might be a good idea, to compensate for some cars being ballasted and some not. I find that the tyres tend to cool to their normal temperature relatively quickly with tyre blankets. They mostly seem to help avoid just the cold start.
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Jap pack is on at the new track, server set for send to pit on jump start. Stracker may over count lap numbers minorating may not be working but other then that it should be all good. I will jump in later tonight and sort out any issues if I can and also give the new cars a proper run.
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Noticed an aussie server - XRST running the same jap cars and same settings as Marty was. No MR tho. Is this one of our guys??
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Not me and dont know xrst or who runs that, the combo was quite popular so I guess they are trying. But ABC at times got messy enough no MR I would rather hotlap. ;) The server could be run by people that cant get into mine due to poor ratings so at least all the wreckers can head into that.
People are free to setup any servers they want so good on them. Mine are simply there to get data for the next season and with MR we can also get some fun races in it when it gets busier. I was almost going to make it AB only but left in C to get a few more as many of these guys are at least putting in an effort to race kid of clean
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Yeah, I'm the same. Not taking the chance with no MR. Just wondering as it's only popped up yesterday.
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Here are the average times from Brands Hatch (looking at all times between 53.7 and 59.0 seconds):
RX-7 Spirit R | 00:56.0 |
370z Nismo | 00:56.0 |
Supra MKIV | 00:56.2 |
Skyline GTR R34 V-Spec | 00:55.9 |
As good as the same, Supra fractionally slower.
Here was Imola (times between 2:06.1 and 2:24, + 10%):
RX-7 Spirit R | 02:11.9 |
370z Nismo | 02:12.3 |
Supra MKIV | 02:13.6 |
Skyline GTR R34 V-Spec | 02:13.3 |
Supra and Skyline fractionally slower.
It will be interesting to get some RBR times as well, although we probably won't get as many laps there being a DLC track.
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Yeah, I'm the same. Not taking the chance with no MR. Just wondering as it's only popped up yesterday.
Could just be someone that also really liked that combo at Brands and may not have the DLC so probably cant see or race them at RBR now.
Numbers will likely drop at RBR as there are quite a few other car for people to test also. I only ran a few laps in the r34 and it felt nice at the gp circuit. Quite a tricky track with track limits as its got so much run off and pretty big brake zones into a few corners that are just asking for you to exploit them. I think a fair chunk of those that have the jap pack would likely get the new DLC but being majority open wheel not sure if it will be the biggest seller.
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I think a fair chunk of those that have the jap pack would likely get the new DLC but being majority open wheel not sure if it will be the biggest seller.
Thats a shame, its my fav pack by far
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After a few attempts at racing in that server, I have now culled the grades. Just too many poor drivers were in there, if there are any XGN guys that want to run in it and arent rated A B yet and cant get in PM your GUID and I will add you to the xgn whitelist.
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Ok, will give it a go then. Maybe later tonight. :)
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Ok, will give it a go then. Maybe later tonight. :)
Did you get the dlc, there were pletny on there just seemed to be worse overall then normal in an ABC server but not sure why. I feel the toyota may be quickest but I never really had a proper lap in it though there wasnt much in the cars I ran.
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Nah, just me getting confused. Your beginner server is the only one I see with the filters on so thought it was that one. Then I realised a beginners server wouldn't be much good without the lower ratings......senior moment/hour/day etc..... ::) :P
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I've been pondering all the time data so far, looking at a relative comparison of the individual times set by people who've driven multiple cars, to see if they are much faster or slower in any particular car. If there was a trend, like most people's slowest car was the Supra for example, then it would show that there's an imbalance that needs to be addressed. But as it turns out, for both Imola and Brands Hatch, it's all over the shop. Some people are significantly faster in cars that other people are significantly slower in. A lot of people have well matched times across the cars. My conclusion is that overall, it's pretty balanced with the current ballasts.
It goes to show how hard it is to come up with a BOP for the general sim racer. In real life motorsport, where the pros can churn out very consistent times close to each other, it's easier. But there's so much variation in sim racers' times.
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Yea BOP is a tricky one, in real racing there is also the milking for BOP assistance as in Ford putting in little to no effort at any session all year only to find massive amounts of time come Lemans qualy. Overall I think the idea is to try get them close for the quickest guys more then anything else, you dont really want a situation where one car is a clear advantage if one of the quicker guys picks it meaning anyone wanting to compete with that would also need the same car.
For the others, many dont run as consistant or as many laps in general. They may not be able to adjust between cars as well and of these 4 they are all quite different to drive. So from that they should be able to find 1 of the 2 that will suit them better and still know that picking one over the other isnt putting them at a huge disadvantage.
For me at certain tracks the easiest car to get a lap out of has been different pretty much always, basic things like gear ratios have quite an impact. If you dont quite have the right gear for a corner and another car is geared better it can be a significant advantage. However this is mostly pot luck track to track and any car can win or lose in this lottery.
At Imola the Supra had the slight edge I feel, at Brands it was the weakest but not by miles, in RBR its close to the Rx7 and both have a slight edge over the other 2 here but max potential maybe .5 between fastest and slowest though current times are closer then that for me. The rx7 and Supra both had a bit more time in them, also the 370 has a couple more tenths but nailing a lap at this track is quite tricky.
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Going by my laptimes at RBR http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapstat?currservers=acserver3Ballast
I had not looked at theoretical best laps and these seem closer to the actual times but there its
1:49.455 rx7
1:49.711 Supra
1:49.911 GTR
1:49.905 370z
So theoretical best for me there is still only a spread of .456 with an actual laptime spread of .396
For a faster more open track the Supra could do with maybe 10 to 15kg ballast but overall its one of the trickier cars to get a laptime and on a twisty track it struggles the most.
The R34 in general will do well at any track without very long straights, not likely to be easily quickest anywhere but its a pretty good all rounder. Also its got a huge advantage off the line so quite handy for reverse grid starts, and also real good out of slow corners so can be useful passing in traffic.
The Rx7 is quick even with this ballast, it does make it hard to come to a stop and gearing seems pretty good at most tracks in that. Good all rounder too but being consistent in it isnt that easy. Loosing the rear with a bit of overdriving is very easily done and the extra weight makes it a bit sluggish up hills or into brake zones.
The 370 is more stable then the rx7, extra weight does make it hurt into downhill brake zones especially, gearing is kind of odd with very short 1st gear a bit taller 2nd and 4rd vs the rx7 for its power range. This means quite often it needs to be half a gear taller into corners then ideal and effects its exit speeds. Lap pace though its generally pretty close to the quickest and has never been the slowest car for me.
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/st session qtime 15 command not recognised
Guess I'm a useless admin