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Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Australian Assetto Corsa League, Tuesday nights => Topic started by: Wally on October 03, 2014, 09:01:41 PM

Title: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 03, 2014, 09:01:41 PM

Grab some popcorn and settle back...

Firstly, I averaged the world record times on RSR rank for each of the cars at a good variety of tracks. Then I scaled all the averages in relation to the Exige 240R S3, out of 100, so I could get a percentage of how much slower each car was than the Exige 240R S3. You have to use a percentage like this, to account for different length tracks, like Magione to Nords. This is something I used with the NKP ballast calculations. For example, on Nords a 24 second difference in lap times means you have to slow a car down by 5% of the lap time, while a 3 second gap at Magione is also a 5% slowdown. You'd end up with the same car with these gaps, because it's the same percentage.

So now I have a ranking of all the cars. This is how much slower each car is than the Exige 240R s3, in seconds, over 100 seconds.

 

Exige 240R s3	0
Evora S S2	0.5
Exige Scura	0.6
Exige S Roadster	1
M3 E92 Step 1	1.4
Evora S	1.7
Exige 240R	1.8
M3 E92	1.9
BMW 1M	2.4
Elise SC S2	2.7
Elise SC S1	3.1
Elise SC	3.4
Z4 E89 S1	5
Z4 E89	6.4

At the end of each round, I average each driver's fastest laps in each race. If a driver only completed a few laps before DNF'ing, say, that race is excluded. I then toss out anyone who's average is way off the others, so the results don't get skewed.

Then I scale those average fastest lap times so that the slowest is 100 seconds, to account for different length tracks as explained above, so I can work out what percentage each car is slower.

I might get numbers like this:

 

Flattop	100.000
Grubbet	98.293
Dave O	98.080
Schmittez	97.835
Phil	97.452
GWyar	97.427
RPM	97.412
Rob [Team MRT]	97.280
Bacchulum	97.243
Imperious	97.236
Peter Reid	97.013
Krahl	96.937
Vipergod [Team MRT]	96.928
Dick Forrest [CramDick Racing]	96.761
Enforcer-J	96.709
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels]	96.534
Freezer	96.520
EdWood	96.476
Wally [TKO Racing]	96.418
Ysu [TKO Racing]	96.008
Marty [Achilles Heels]	95.573
Mopz	95.444

Then I take the median of those times - the number where half the lap times are slower and half are faster. This is 96.98 in the example above. Anyone who was faster than 96.98 secs needs a slower car; anyone who was slower than 96.98 secs needs a faster car.

So in the example above, Phil needs a car which is 97.452 - 96.98 = 0.48 seconds slower than the car he currently has. He got that lap time in a BMW 1M, so he needs a car which is 0.48 seconds slower than a BMW 1M, which in that first table is the Exige 240R (the real calculation uses more decimal places than the rounded numbers I've shown here).

Another example: Mopz needs a car which is 95.444 - 96.98= 1.53 seconds slower than his Exige 240R. From the first table, this gives him the Elise SC S1.

Looking at the car rank above, you can see why lots of people end up in the Elise SC. Once you need a car that's between 3.4 (Elise SC) and 5 (Z4 E89 S1) seconds slower, which is quite a large gap compared to the other car differences, you end up in the Elise SC zone.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bacchulum on October 03, 2014, 09:20:04 PM

If you use a Taylor Series and an Exponential mapping you can refine the result by an order of magnitudes. ;)

But that would make no difference as the car differences are set. :-\

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM

Seems fairly solid to me.

The only thing I can't figure out is how so many people of varying abilities end up in the standard Lotus when it is only 3 tenths on average quicker than the S1?

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 03, 2014, 09:43:59 PM

Quote from: Bacchulum on October 03, 2014, 09:20:04 PM

If you use a Taylor Series and an Exponential mapping you can refine the result by an order of magnitudes. ;)

But that would make no difference as the car differences are set. :-\

Coming from Aleph Null, I have no idea what you're talking about :)

Quote from: Guybrush Threepwood on October 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM

The only thing I can't figure out is how so many people of varying abilities end up in the standard Lotus when it is only 3 tenths on average quicker than the S1?

I suppose the slice between the SC and the S1 is small, only 0.3 seconds, yet we still have ended up with 3 guys in that car.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 03, 2014, 10:16:47 PM

Quote from: Wally on October 03, 2014, 09:43:59 PM

Quote from: Bacchulum on October 03, 2014, 09:20:04 PM

If you use a Taylor Series and an Exponential mapping you can refine the result by an order of magnitudes. ;)

But that would make no difference as the car differences are set. :-\

Coming from Aleph Null, I have no idea what you're talking about :)

Quote from: Guybrush Threepwood on October 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM

The only thing I can't figure out is how so many people of varying abilities end up in the standard Lotus when it is only 3 tenths on average quicker than the S1?

I suppose the slice between the SC and the S1 is small, only 0.3 seconds, yet we still have ended up with 3 guys in that car.

Aren't there 6 guys in that car for Silverstone?

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 03, 2014, 11:17:09 PM

I meant the S1.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bruce on October 04, 2014, 10:13:19 AM

Impressive on many levels Wally.  Thanks.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 04, 2014, 10:58:04 AM

Quote from: Flattop Bruce on October 04, 2014, 10:13:19 AM

Impressive on many levels Wally.  Thanks.

Thanks. I've been thinking about these things for many years now  8)

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bird on October 04, 2014, 12:52:54 PM

Thanks, Wally, I've actually enjoyed reading this!  I thought it might be something like this - but I've certainly not systemised it.  Great job!

And I've got no idea what Bacchulum is talking about, either ;)

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bacchulum on October 04, 2014, 02:02:25 PM

You convert your function into an infinite sum, then take the derivative of those terms.
That's your Taylor Series. 8)
The exponential mapping was a joke. :P :P


 8)

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 04, 2014, 03:08:47 PM

Quote from: Bacchulum on October 04, 2014, 02:02:25 PM

You convert your function into an infinite sum, then take the derivative of those terms.
That's your Taylor Series. 8)
The exponential mapping was a joke. :P :P


 8)

Right. Gotcha now.
Not.
It's ringing vague bells from my uni days.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bacchulum on October 04, 2014, 04:10:41 PM

I never did uni.
I just read maths for fun. 8)

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Freezer on October 04, 2014, 04:17:42 PM

Quote from: Bacchulum on October 04, 2014, 04:10:41 PM

I just read maths for fun. 8)

Well its just getting a little weird now....!

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 04, 2014, 05:55:07 PM

Looks like you have done all the research Wally great effort thanks for that. I still think more could be done to balance the front end of the field especially all those in the elise sc in both last round and this round. I wonder if balancing vs the fastest and also others in the same car to some extent may be better then the medium or the slowest person.


Krahl   Elise SC   Elise SC 96.937
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels]   Z4 E89 S1   Z4 E89 S1 96.534
Freezer   Elise SC   Elise SC 96.520
EdWood   Elise SC   Elise SC 96.476
Wally [TKO Racing]   Elise SC    Elise SC 96.418
Ysu [TKO Racing]   Elise SC    Elise SC 96.008
Marty [Achilles Heels] Elise SC    Elise SC 95.573

Between me and Krahl there was 1.34 seconds and so even if you gave him a boost to a 1M that is 1 second and a e92 would be 1.5 seconds so it would bring our lap times much closer. Even Guybrush in the z4 is 1 second off my pace and he was on it pretty much all the way so he doesnt really have a chance if we have these 2 cars against each other for outright race pace.

Exige 240R s3   0
Evora S S2    0.5
Exige Scura    0.6
Exige S Roadster    1
M3 E92 Step  1   1.4
Evora S1 .7
Exige 240R    1.8
M3 E92           1.9
BMW 1M    2.4
Elise SC S2   2.7
Elise SC S1   3.1
Elise SC   3.4
Z4 E89 S1    5
Z4 E89   6.4

I still think the z4 has too large a gap to the next car so its not a great option as If Guy and me were both in this wed still be about .6 off Bird but as Im slower then Guy id be more like 1 second slower then Bird and .5 off Guy.

So the way Id see it is it would be better if say both me and Guy were in the SC or even just have him in the SC and me in the s1, then have all others in cars that would closest match Guys pace which is probably the one quickest if you compare his car and lap pace. He was in a car 1.6 slower then me but was only 1 sec slower so I should really have around .6 or .5 on him and then base everyone in a car that would closest match guys pace.

What do you think of that way of dealing with it Wally?

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Gratulin on October 04, 2014, 06:11:24 PM

Ballast!

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bacchulum on October 04, 2014, 06:17:52 PM

Quote from: Gratulin on October 04, 2014, 06:11:24 PM

Ballast!

+1

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 04, 2014, 07:57:41 PM

It's not just about the pointy end of the field though. It's about closing the entire field up, so everybody gets some close racing. The middle guy in last race was pretty much Peter Reid. The system is all about getting everyone to do around about that lap time. Even in the Z4, Guybrush was still faster than Peter Reid. In the Elise SC, he'd be even further away from Peter, not closer.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 04, 2014, 10:22:46 PM

Yes but thats where I think those slower should simply get faster cars and there are a few too many in the slower ones. Not that Peter is slow and needs much help normally but its just the example you used in this case. I just see that a few guys are more disadvantaged and I think Dick was lapping much the same times as Guy so thats the tricky bit. Put guy in the Elise will he be too quick for the slower guys in the 240r s3 which is the tricky thing. Its just there is closer gaps between every other car but I wouldnt mind being in the same car as Guybrush as Id like to take him on fairly.

Hes not here this week so I can have another go in the Elise and depending on how that goes maybe I should drop down to Z4 too. But the last 3 tracks will all be different to the last round that much more favored the elise over the cars with higher top speeds. Its always a tricky thing and Im just making suggestions you may want to consider, I though my car was a bit too quick last round and it really didnt give enough chance to those behind. Mopz was also in a car that was a bit too quick but then bird came into it too, the 3 of us by race 3 had a fair gap on the rest of the pack except mopz started last. I just think there was more room to go with others getting quicker cars then me a slower one unless all get put closer to the middle time.

Seeing I the middle time was 96.98 and I had 95.73 then I should have dropped, but so should all these and many were in the elise sc already, so the only place they can go is the z4. Thats everyone from me to Krahl and so if we are all in the z4 there is still 1.4s between me and Krahl so he is at more disadvantage then me and would likely be one of the slowest next round.

Krahl   96.937
Vipergod [Team MRT]   96.928
Dick Forrest [CramDick Racing]   96.761
Enforcer-J   96.709
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels]   96.534
Freezer   96.520
EdWood   96.476
Wally [TKO Racing]   96.418
Ysu [TKO Racing]   96.008
Marty [Achilles Heels]   95.573
Mopz   95.444

Im just thinking that it would be much closer racing through the pack if less people were in elises. Looking at Vipergod and Dick who were in the 240R s3 they were still only 1.355 and 1.188 behind me. So if that was the gap front to back of the pack it would be crazy close, there are probably enough cars to get most others somewhere in between My time and Vipergod. It would also give those .5 to 1 sec off the lead pace more chance and bring that pack in much closer.

Will be interesting next round though as maybe this round was a one off due to the track but still the guys in the elises have been much the same and its almost the same between us as it was in the Abarths. As most of us 6 are in the same car but there is a bit of a time spread that could be reduced with some more moving up in cars.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Dick Forrest on October 05, 2014, 09:04:03 AM

I hope you have ear plugs in Wally!
  Don't listen to Marty. He's had a head injury. He carries on like a bit of a pork chop.

I think, at the end of the day. Every one wants the perfect system. when it just wont happen that easily with the tools you have atm.
So don't get sucked in to defending the system you got going Wally!
"it's hard to fly with eagles when you work with a bunch of turkeys"

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 05, 2014, 10:10:04 AM

It's too early to think. The caffeine hasn't kicked in yet. But I listen to everything - it's the only way to learn and improve, especially as we may well use this system again in different cars. So I'll think about it. It is made more difficult by the cars having set gaps in speeds, so it will never be perfect. With ballast at least, if someone needs just 1 more kg, you can do it. There's much more scope for fine tuning.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 05, 2014, 02:59:56 PM

Dick I have nothing against the system but Im sure it can always be improved, only by trying different things will you find the best option. There are lots of variables atm so I dont think there will ever be a perfect system and track to track things may change.

An an ideal handicap system it wont make it impossible for anyone to win a race but also any driver should be fairly close to the pole lap or at least best race lap. If anyone is too fast or too slow then something is wrong but also if people in the same cars dont quite match the pace of others in those cars it may be worth trying to change these to even everyone up as much as possible. Also there is another variable where generally the slower guys wont be as consistant and so giving them a car slightly quicker then the faster guys also even out more but its pretty much a black art at that level.

By the sounds of it Ballast has been considered but not yet implemented and no actual time frame but they do see it as something they want to add. The XGN forum spam didn't fall on deaf ears then.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bird on October 05, 2014, 08:15:39 PM

The issue though - as you've already mentioned, Marty - is that next week we'll have a track that does not favour the slow cars anymore.  The whole thing will get a fair bit of a kick in the gut, methinks. 

It's pretty good for now - altho indeed, some of us in the base Elise could be a car up - but I'd wait and see a couple more races how things pan out.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 06, 2014, 11:52:35 AM

Quote from: Bird on October 05, 2014, 08:15:39 PM

The issue though - as you've already mentioned, Marty - is that next week we'll have a track that does not favour the slow cars anymore.  The whole thing will get a fair bit of a kick in the gut, methinks. 

It's pretty good for now - altho indeed, some of us in the base Elise could be a car up - but I'd wait and see a couple more races how things pan out.

Balancing car to car is always going to be trickier but if there is a gap of 1.5 or more seconds between people in the same car then this would be easier to adust to level these people out more. Finidng which cars will be best to move up or down to is the tricky thing and why I think the z4 just has too large a gap. Unless someone is clearly 1.5 seconds faster then the field if in the same car its useable otherwise not so much. Looking at Wally's charts the other cars are all fairly close but then there may be the issue of if guy is in an Elise sc can dick keep up with him. Does there need to be a faster or slower car? Seeing gaps at the front are generaly smaller or actually more in the middle beyond the first 3 or 4. The first few guys should be in the slowest cars, looking at past seasons the mid pack has always been quite close. I think this means these are the people that shouod be in more similar cars rather then the first 6 to 8 which have generally had about 1 to 2 seconds spread. Then the guys at the back may have another 1 or 2 seconds with most of the midfield covered by less then a second.

There needs to be enough room to move between the fastest and slowest guy and ideally the 2 that would set fastest and slowest laps in a race can get cars that will bring them closer. Then everyone else also be trying to match the lap times. Thats pretty much what Wally is trying to do anyway by trying to match everyone to the mediun time so in theory its the same thing exactly I think.

Just somehow I think the time gaps are too large between people in the same cars so only people really running similar pace to eachother should be in the same car and thats guys averaging inside .5 others should be moved to a car that will get their lap closer to the front of the pack. If the front of pack is getting similar pace between the fastest and slowest guy in even cars then it will mean its doing pretty well.

Wally is doing great as is but Im sure a few small adjustments to the method can be beneficial to get more people racing closer with others.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Enforcer-J on October 06, 2014, 02:20:31 PM

You could argue the fact the handicap system is based on fastest laps and not on average laps (obviously dropping extremes).

You could then argue that consistancy is a bigger part of racing and irrelevant to outright handicapping relating to car potential. But then the purpose of the system is to keep the racing close.

Theres also the issue of driving style and what car suits you better. Whilst the E93 is calculated to be only 0.1 seconds slower over 100 seconds, im a lot faster than that in the 240R as it is so much more predictable, stable and suited to my driving stlye. Whilst I might be able to clock a time 0.1 seconds slower in the beamer, realistically it is a much slower car over a race distance for me.... and even more so racing other cars and not just hotlapping.

Am I complaining? Absolutely not! Im merely pointing out more variables to consider that make the whole system impossible to perfect and from what I saw the other night, the racing was great.... and as long as we are there or there abouts, its all good!

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Enforcer-J on October 06, 2014, 02:24:09 PM

Ofcourse that doesnt mean the pursuit for perfection should be abandoned, just that I hope people dont get upset when it doesnt work in their favour ;)

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 06, 2014, 04:20:52 PM

 "Yes but thats where I think those slower should simply get faster cars"
I tried that earlier, and the problem was that the there was no car fast enough for the slowest guys. There’s more room to move with car allocations if you try to get everyone around the middle time, and not either the fastest or the slowest.
 
"I wouldnt mind being in the same car as Guybrush as Id like to take him on fairly"
The goal is to balance everyone out, not just one pair of guys who want to race together.
 
"the last round that much more favored the elise over the cars with higher top speeds"
There are always going to be tracks that favour some cars over others, and that’s part of the fun. To be practical and automated, you have to go on average times across a variety of tracks. Over several rounds, the whole system is auto-balancing because the faster guys get a slower car and the slower guys get a faster car. It will trend towards some kind of equilibrium automatically.
 
"Seeing I the middle time was 96.98 and I had 95.73 then I should have dropped"
Yes, you should have, a little bit, but not as far as the Z4. That would have made you too slow. You only get dropped down a car if it is still faster than the middle lap time you should be doing. You don’t get given a car that is slower than where you should be. Guybrush in the Z4 is still faster than he should be, on paper at least.
 
"An an ideal handicap system it wont make it impossible for anyone to win a race but also any driver should be fairly close to the pole lap or at least best race lap. If anyone is too fast or too slow then something is wrong but also if people in the same cars dont quite match the pace of others in those cars it may be worth trying to change these to even everyone up as much as possible"
There’s a huge amount of variation – car/track combos, how well a car suits you, even how well anyone’s driving on the night. It’s never going to be perfect, but this system, like the ballast system before it, will reduce the gap from the front to the back of the field, especially over time. Each round refines the car allocations even more from the rounds before.
 
"Just somehow I think the time gaps are too large between people in the same cars"
As the gaps get too big, the system will automatically change their cars, depending on the gaps in the cars’ average lap times.
 
This system, as it is, will trend over time towards pushing everyone towards the middle time and giving everyone close racing. It’s never going to be as perfect as ballast allocations, because of the gaps between cars. Because I don’t give someone a car that’s even slower than their theoretical lap time, no one should be unfairly disadvantaged by being too slow. There will be some rounds where it’s harder than others in a given car – but that’s the track variation from round to round. If you end being "too slow" compared to the rest of the field, you’ll get a faster car. It’s not like anyone’s going to be stuck in the Z4 forever.


For interest, I calculated how the lap times for the next round should pan out, based on what you could do in your old car and given the new car you have, on paper. The results are very, very close - again, on paper. The system can't do any better than this.

Median lap time last round: 96.98

 

Flattop	Exige 240R S3	97.27
Grubbet	Exige 240R S3	97.71
Dave O	M3 E92 Step 1	96.76
Schmittez	M3 E92 Step 1	96.90
Phil	Exige 240R	96.88
GWyar	M3 E92	96.63
RPM	BMW 1M	96.68
Rob [Team MRT]	M3 E92	96.86
Bacchulum	Elise SC S1	96.95
Imperious	Elise SC S2	96.89
Peter Reid	Elise SC S1	96.72
Krahl	Elise SC	96.94
Vipergod [Team MRT]	Exige 240R	96.93
Dick Forrest [CramDick Racing]	Exige 240R S3	96.76
Enforcer-J	M3 E92	96.86
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels]	Z4 E89 S1	96.53
Freezer	Elise SC	96.52
EdWood	Elise SC	96.48
Wally [TKO Racing]	Elise SC	96.42
Ysu [TKO Racing]	Elise SC	96.01
Marty [Achilles Heels]	Elise SC	95.57
Mopz	Elise SC S1	96.74

A couple of observations:
Flattop and Grubbet are still a bit too slow, but they are in the fastest car.
Ysu and Marty are still a bit too fast, but the Z4 would drop them down to be too slow.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 06, 2014, 06:12:08 PM

It's.so tough to work out accurately.  One way to improve it would be to look at one person's lap time in the different cars rather than just the world records as some of the difference in the world record can be attributed to the drivers, not just the car. Of course then you would need to know that person was trying their best in each car and track combo.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 06, 2014, 08:14:37 PM

On the practice server atm and had some good battles with schmittez who was in the e92 unfortunatly the other guys in Elises even the higher steps are more off the pace 1 to 2.5 seconds and some of these would benefit from faster cars I think.

Just seems too many elises and the gaps between the guys in these cars could be reduced by handing out a few faster cars I think. Regarding me and Guybrush in the same car there is about .5 between us in the same car but him in a z4 turns the gap about 1.5s so puts me further ahead of him then I am behind if we are in the same cars.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Enforcer-J on October 06, 2014, 08:33:06 PM

I had an awesome battle with schmittz side by side for 5 laps until we finally touched and the inevitable happened!

Title: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Gratulin on October 06, 2014, 09:53:43 PM

I think we are at the limits of the driver, at least that is the case with me. I am not hitting the apexes consistently and therefore don't carry sufficient speed through the corner and cannot get on the gas early enough. It is not a car allocation problem for me. Having said that, my PB is now 1:17:9. So getting there. Is there still a week left to practise :)

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Freezer on October 07, 2014, 12:21:31 PM

Whilst I am not critical at all of the process, as an observation with Guy in the Z4 we were very close last week, but for this week Marty (on RSR) is 1.3 quicker so far and we are in the same car as we have always been and I have never been able to catch him.
Food for thought... :)

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 07, 2014, 01:47:39 PM

Quote from: Freezer on October 07, 2014, 12:21:31 PM

Whilst I am not critical at all of the process, as an observation with Guy in the Z4 we were very close last week, but for this week Marty (on RSR) is 1.3 quicker so far and we are in the same car as we have always been and I have never been able to catch him.
Food for thought... :)

I don't get what you are trying to say?  Wouldn't you have been about the same off Marty last week as well considering I was at least a second slower than Marty in the Z4?

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Freezer on October 07, 2014, 02:30:47 PM

Quote from: Guybrush Threepwood on October 07, 2014, 01:47:39 PM

Quote from: Freezer on October 07, 2014, 12:21:31 PM

Whilst I am not critical at all of the process, as an observation with Guy in the Z4 we were very close last week, but for this week Marty (on RSR) is 1.3 quicker so far and we are in the same car as we have always been and I have never been able to catch him.
Food for thought... :)

I don't get what you are trying to say?  Wouldn't you have been about the same off Marty last week as well considering I was at least a second slower than Marty in the Z4?

Point is with you in the Z4 it made us a lot closer.  But with Marty who is always in the same car as me but considerably quicker the effect of closing up the field is not so . . . but thats just from where I sit in he scheme of things!

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 07, 2014, 04:14:20 PM

Quote from: Freezer on October 07, 2014, 02:30:47 PM

Quote from: Guybrush Threepwood on October 07, 2014, 01:47:39 PM

Quote from: Freezer on October 07, 2014, 12:21:31 PM

Whilst I am not critical at all of the process, as an observation with Guy in the Z4 we were very close last week, but for this week Marty (on RSR) is 1.3 quicker so far and we are in the same car as we have always been and I have never been able to catch him.
Food for thought... :)

I don't get what you are trying to say?  Wouldn't you have been about the same off Marty last week as well considering I was at least a second slower than Marty in the Z4?

Point is with you in the Z4 it made us a lot closer.  But with Marty who is always in the same car as me but considerably quicker the effect of closing up the field is not so . . . but thats just from where I sit in he scheme of things!

I think thats kind of what Im trying to say, but then me in the z4 would be about .5 slower then you freezer where I think If you got a car that was 1 second quicker would be a better solution. I remember Dick putting in one of the quickest laps early in practice on race nite last round which was only about .6 slower then my best of the nite. He also did that on lower grip levels but then I think he may have forgot how to drive or was pacing himself AKA sandbagging.  ;) So If dick could come closer to my times in the 240r s3 then both you in the elise sc and Guy in the z4. Then freezer in a beamer would be very close to my times and Guy in an Elise would be closer too even if slightly ahead of me but not 1 second slower as was last round.

Put me in the z4 and I will be 1.5 seconds slower then Schmittez who is faster then me this round atm and I dont know how much more pace is in that elise, freezer would still be over 1 second slower then him in an Elise sc and Dick would be quicker then all of us possibly, assuming he isnt pacing himself too much.  ;D There is also the issue of lap consistancy so average race pace over outright fastest time but I think Wally's method of average fastest lap per driver over the 3 races seems to be quite a good way of finding benchmark times.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: insomniac on October 07, 2014, 05:33:32 PM

I would've thought it should be based off the fastest  person, not the slowest or median or whatever... but then you can see I've put a lot of thought into it lol maybe based off a few races, not only the last one would greatly improve things also? Since I got discod last race and unfortunately am stuck in the same car as Marty which I shouldn't be in, since he's consistently faster than me everywhere. Castle Hill I was about a second if not more slower, and here at Silverstone I'm nearly 2s off the pace. Hell let's just base everyone around Marty haha

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bacchulum on October 07, 2014, 05:45:14 PM

I'm sure we could come up with a 3 page long equation to sort out the 0.5-1 sec differences.
But I'll screw all that up as I can change pace by .75 sec between races in the same car!!! :o
And I consider myself 'consistent'. :-\

They've said ballast is coming, so I wouldn't lose sleep over any of this.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 07, 2014, 06:21:34 PM

Exactly Bacchulum. There are so many variables.

But what I will do for next round is base the calculations on the WR times achievable this round at Silverstone as well as the times for the next round at Imola, instead of just using WR averages. That will filter out even more car strengths and weaknesses at a particular track.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bird on October 07, 2014, 10:22:53 PM

Use the time that most people do in each car for the track (where the peak is in the laptimes)!
...or not...:D

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 07, 2014, 11:23:27 PM

Quote from: Bird on October 07, 2014, 10:22:53 PM

Use the time that most people do in each car for the track (where the peak is in the laptimes)!
...or not... :D

Yeah, I have looked at doing that, but some car/track combos don't really have enough data, and there sometimes isn't a well defined peak. The WR's still give you a relative performance for the cars on a given track.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 08, 2014, 12:48:25 AM

Looks better for the next round Wally, not so many in the Elises and good to see the guys like Rob who did well this round not get too badly handicapped as their pace still wasnt all that far ahead of what was doable in an Elise.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 08, 2014, 08:11:59 AM

Yep, don't forget you don't get penalised just for winning - it's just about your lap times. Rob was a bit slower in race 1, which brought his average back to the pack.

Title: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Gratulin on October 08, 2014, 03:00:51 PM

I don't think I have done enough races this season to enable the 'Wally formula' to settle in for me. My comment below should be tempered by the fact that I have not really come to grips with the Lotus even though it is really fun to drive and by the fact that I have completed less races than most.

1. I have dropped from running mid-field to back of the field. This is down to a number of factors I think but mainly my lack of driving time. I am finding it difficult changing cars each race. Someone made the comment that the laptimes really improved in Race 3 last night.

2. I am missing the guidance of the faster/better drivers in the lines to take and the setup of a specific car/track combo. I could find no setup for the Lotus SC S2 since none of the good drivers were using that car. I really miss Guybrush's setups!! I now have the BMW to learn for next week...

3. The faster guys in slow cars are lethal. They really are wringing every last second out of those cars so driving behind them or in front of them is unpredictable.

4. As a back-marker / mid-fielder I am not really looking for close "pack" racing. My skills are not good enough to enjoy that. Last season I enjoyed the occasional contest with other racers in the same car even if it was for 15th position but also enjoyed some more relaxed racing behind or in front of other cars clocking similar laptimes.

5. Handicapping should about -

A) bringing the fast guys back to the other front runners - not back to the midfield. This is for the benefit of all the front runners to improve their level of enjoyment of the racing.
B) keeping the majority of the midfield on the same car and letting the different skill levels come into play. The differences aren't that great.
C) bring the back markers up to the back of the midfield so that there is no lapping by the lead cars. Even after I have spun or been hit and end up last I still enjoy circulating for the rest of the race if the tail-end of the pack is in sight. Once I am looking at the lead cars bearing down on me I prefer to stop. I know that lapped cars are a part of racing but mostly in longer races where there are a lot of lapped cars so it is part of the experience for everyone. Being the lone lapped car is no fun believe me.

Enough! Hope everyone doesn't take my comments the wrong way but I felt it worth posting them.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bird on October 08, 2014, 04:05:41 PM

Thanks, Gratulin.   It's very interesting to read your opinions!  I find it a bit contradictory in one way only; you are in online racing, but you prefer to be "left alone" somewhat.   The rest I can completely see your point on; re-learning cars and lack of setups can be a bit of an issue.

I think once we have ballast, we can fine tune things better, and run same-makes with tighter fields. 
Keep in mind, though, that in mixed car races you'll probably not get the same car as Guybrush, since he will always be in something relatively slow.
But you can try creating setups, who knows, you might have a knack for it and create really good once after a while.  It takes a lot of time, though. (not just learning, creating each setup, too)

P.s. If you need specific advice on racing lines or setup, just ask.   There's a few people here who can help.  Altho the best thing is to try it, practice it.

P.p.s. sorry for being "lethal", hehe, I'd not have thought us being as such.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Gratulin on October 08, 2014, 04:50:58 PM

Bird, I still remember being passed 3 times by you in the Cobra at Salzburg and there were only 5 laps in race and you weren't lapping me :))

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bird on October 08, 2014, 05:06:04 PM

Ah but that's just for fun, isn't it! ;)

And let's be honest, that cobra is a menace at higher speeds...

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Gratulin on October 08, 2014, 05:15:34 PM

Quote from: Bird on October 08, 2014, 05:06:04 PM

Ah but that's just for fun, isn't it! ;)

And let's be honest, that cobra is a menace at higher speeds...

So you keep telling us :))

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 08, 2014, 08:12:00 PM

Always interesting to hear what people want to get out of the races. Closing up the field with handicaps brings different skills than just speed to the fore, like consistency, patience and battling cars more. Personally, I hate nothing more than just hotlapping in a race without seeing other cars. I much prefer sitting on someone's bumper looking for a pass.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Dick Forrest on October 08, 2014, 08:49:23 PM

Quote from: Wally on October 08, 2014, 08:12:00 PM

Always interesting to hear what people want to get out of the races. Closing up the field with handicaps brings different skills than just speed to the fore, like consistency, patience and battling cars more. Personally, I hate nothing more than just hotlapping in a race without seeing other cars. I much prefer sitting on someone's bumper looking for a pass.

Nothing is stopping you from slowing down and joining me at the back..  ;D

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 08, 2014, 11:01:53 PM

Quote from: Dick Forrest on October 08, 2014, 08:49:23 PM

Quote from: Wally on October 08, 2014, 08:12:00 PM

Always interesting to hear what people want to get out of the races. Closing up the field with handicaps brings different skills than just speed to the fore, like consistency, patience and battling cars more. Personally, I hate nothing more than just hotlapping in a race without seeing other cars. I much prefer sitting on someone's bumper looking for a pass.

Nothing is stopping you from slowing down and joining me at the back..  ;D

I seem to remember racing an orange 240R last round...

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 08, 2014, 11:40:21 PM

I passed that Orange Dick wagon last race too, and I wasnt lapping it was for position  :o Position 20 to be exact but the orange wagon was cutting the grass at the time and no I didn't push it over there.

Also funny in that race my best was 1:17.121 while dick did a 1:17.843 with the race best Rob with a 1:16.852 so dick was within a second of the fastest lap in that race which I think is a good effort by his Dickness.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Dick Forrest on October 09, 2014, 09:47:33 AM

Quote from: marty on October 08, 2014, 11:40:21 PM

I passed that Orange Dick wagon last race too, and I wasnt lapping it was for position  :o Position 20 to be exact but the orange wagon was cutting the grass at the time and no I didn't push it over there.

Also funny in that race my best was 1:17.121 while dick did a 1:17.843 with the race best Rob with a 1:16.852 so dick was within a second of the fastest lap in that race which I think is a good effort by his Dickness.

It is fun racing against some big names. I find it funny how I'm nervous around some people lol. It's a peer thing.
I like to race you guys but I notice I hold yous up a bit. So I eventually 1/2 yield..

Like I was saying. I just needed 2 or 3 more races and I would have been right on pace

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Gratulin on October 09, 2014, 10:06:40 AM

I have noticed that they hold each other AND ME up sometimes so I now hold my line, give some racing room and try not to worry anymore.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 09, 2014, 10:39:55 AM

Yeah, we all want a fair battle. I prefer if guys don't just yield because you're on their hammer. Make 'em fight for it. It's better practice all round.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bird on October 09, 2014, 10:59:17 AM

Exactly as Wally said;  if someone is legally behind you (made a mistake, etc) then you hold the right to your position, there's no need to give it up.

Blue flag situations are the only exception.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Dick Forrest on October 09, 2014, 12:34:12 PM

Quote from: Bird on October 09, 2014, 10:59:17 AM

Exactly as Sally said;  if someone is legally behind you (made a mistake, etc) then you hold the right to your position, there's no need to give it up.

Blue flag situations are the only exception.

Sally is right, just cause a faster racer comes off. Doesn't give them an auto pass to barge through us slower guys or just pull out cause they see Dick Forrest.
It happens quite a lot.
I will race you faster guys for as long as I can. It is great practice for both parties. I know people say I should practice against AI but I think the AI are pathetic racers.

Blue flags. Is it a blue flag situation when faster cars are trying to pass for race position? or only when a car is being lapped?

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bird on October 09, 2014, 12:42:57 PM

Not Sally, Wally...sorry!  I should re-read my posts, but this was such a short one I thought there can be no biggies.

By "Blue flag" I meant lapped. 
And yes, AI are usually not very entertaining.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 09, 2014, 01:58:11 PM

I think next season, I might try just having say 3 different GT cars, maybe half or a second apart in lap times, and use the car allocation formula. That way, the field will be closed up a bit, but there will still be sort of natural groupings, or classes if you like  e.g. the faster guys will all be in the slowest cars (but not so slow that they have no chance of winning, but will perhaps bring the front pack back a little closer to the middle pack). The benefit may well be better performance with less models, less learning new cars, although you could still change cars during the season. Thoughts?

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bird on October 09, 2014, 02:10:17 PM

Car buying/renting...then the option to change cars is up to the racer.  (as long as he finishes fairly low)
Just sayin' ;)

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 09, 2014, 02:48:29 PM

Nobody yielded for me and I think I had to pass Gratulin a few times last race too, last thing you want is people yielding except for maybe the ones that took you out of the lead could yield in a redress thingy  ;)

I couldnt get by Bird when I got behind him but luckioy I could get by some of those a little further back.

Re season 4 in gt cars I think would work quite well. On my server I set them all up at times from the evora gtc, the gt3 cars and m3 gt2 along with p4/5 which is kind of in between gt2 and gt3. We should be getting the mercedes gt3 and 458 gt2 with the next update and possibly some more by the next season.

Would be a good mix of cars. Also I think lotus 2 eleven gt4 car which should be similar to the gtc giving a few cars to choose from and maybe 3 to 4 seconds per lap between gt2 and gtc/gt4 cars. With the gt3 pretty much in the middle of those and would make a fun mix of cars with enough room to close the field up a little.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Wally on October 09, 2014, 03:11:42 PM

Quote from: Bird on October 09, 2014, 02:10:17 PM

Car buying/renting...then the option to change cars is up to the racer.  (as long as he finishes fairly low)
Just sayin' ;)

I'm not a big fan of having to think or strategise too much, TBH.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: marty on October 09, 2014, 03:19:48 PM

I will sell you my car or rent it to if you like Bird but I will just drive what ever Wally gives me.  Can we sell season points too could end up with a bit of extra pocket money if there are enough buyers in the market.

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Bird on October 09, 2014, 03:53:08 PM

Quote from: Wally on October 09, 2014, 03:11:42 PM

Quote from: Bird on October 09, 2014, 02:10:17 PM

Car buying/renting...then the option to change cars is up to the racer.  (as long as he finishes fairly low)
Just sayin' ;)

I'm not a big fan of having to think or strategise too much, TBH.

You're kidding, right?  All you do is think, think, lately ;)
Besides, you can just grab the fastest you can get every round if you like.

But let's be honest, it leaves more choice in the hands of the racers, they've more freedom (within limits) to chose their car.  It has worked really well in the past for widely mixed fields, even.    It's just a matter of pricing the really fast cars high enough.

IMO it adds an element of fun to it, not and element of burden ;)

Title: Re: How I work out the car allocation
Post by: Gratulin on October 09, 2014, 05:11:33 PM

Quote from: marty on October 09, 2014, 02:48:29 PM

Nobody yielded for me and I think I had to pass Gratulin a few times last race too....

I thought I was seeing double!? I tried to make it as difficult as possible without getting shunted off the track :)

And now it will only get worse! I'll be passed by Marty(s) in multiple cars - unless Guybrush manages to kill one off that is....