[insomniac]

Here's my 2c...

18.   insomniac   Ferrari 458 GT2                      01:26.913   +02.751   00:27.043   00:23.523   00:36.347   yes   
21.   insomniac   BMW M3 GT2                         01:27.457   +03.295   00:27.561   00:23.645   00:36.251   yes   
25.   insomniac   Chevrolet Corvette C7R          01:27.662   +03.500   00:27.282   00:23.639   00:36.741   yes   

All on default setups. I find the M3 the easiest and most stable to drive, followed by the C7 and then the 458 but the 458 is the most fun and the quickest around brands hatch for me anyway.

I like to race the escort around brands hatch on the ftw server, so know the track fairly well, on a more unknown track the times could be different but I'm confident around here. With setup tweaking I'm sure there's heaps of time in there.

I like grat don't see BH as a decent gt2 track representing good racing, I think Silverstone, Mugella, Imola etc are better suited to represent and race in these cars.

[marty]

maybe its the default setups, when i did my quick test a few weeks a go the cars were stock and yeah the c7 was way quicker

I think its fairly pointless to test using default setups, if we do a gt season then one of the main points of gt cars is the ability to set them up. If it was to be a fixed default setup you may as well run basic street cars. 

The c7 on default probably needs the least amount of work, the 458 is ok on default but feels fairly horrible until you pretty much change everything. The BMW on default is a long way off the pace but also you really need to push quite hard to get any reasonable pace out of it. Once you push and tweak the setup a little its probably my favorite of the 3. The c7 is a bit lifeless and a bit too stable, the 458 quite a pig to get to turn but its all that can be dialed with some setup tweaks.

The way I see them just based on a single track so far the c7 needs about .5 of ballast the other 2 really are pretty close, maybe a faster track the ferrari will get a bit quicker but here there is hardly anything between the 2.

Looking at laptimes though it seems most are only getting closer to the limits in the c7, I did put my setups for the 458 and m3 in ptracker so people can try those and see if it helps them get any more out of it. Brands is also quite a technical track where line can be worth 1 to 2 seconds alone in any car.

[Wally]

If any XGNers are bored, do more than 5 laps here in a car you haven't raced yet, to enable a comparison of how the cars compare for each individual.

The following guys have only set laps in 1 car:

-XGN- Guybrush Threepwood, Corvette
StanDaam, Corvette
Rolz, BMW
Grat, Ferrari
Phil.8, BMW
Ley Ying Lo, Ferrari
Ben, BMW
Joe Stevens, Ferrari

[grat]

Hi,

I did my fair bit of testing. Perhaps strangely, I was fastest in the BMW...

Ferrari: default was driveable but not great. Marty's setup seems to have very strange brake balance. I did my best to try to set it up, but always ended up with something potentially fast, but twitchy like hell. (PS: Marty, I found your setup much better with 66% or more BB instead of 63%)

C7: I did not like it and did not work much on setup, so I think my laps are not so meaningful.

BMW: Marty's setup is really sweet here. Enjoyed and set an almost competitive lap.

All in all, it seems like we might ballast as much as we wish, but the ability (and time) to find a setup that suits you would be really key in a GT2 season.

EDIT: Times (laps):

BMW         1:25.394 (11)
Corvette    1:25.623 (8 )
Ferrari       1:25.988 (19)

[marty]

Brake bias I adjust in car so what is saved may not be what I use, but 66 would flat spot my inside front pretty quick I think. I also regularly use for example 63.5 but for some odd reason you can only do .5 adjustments in car.

[Wally]

maybe its the default setups, when i did my quick test a few weeks a go the cars were stock and yeah the c7 was way quicker

I think its fairly pointless to test using default setups, if we do a gt season then one of the main points of gt cars is the ability to set them up. If it was to be a fixed default setup you may as well run basic street cars. 

The c7 on default probably needs the least amount of work, the 458 is ok on default but feels fairly horrible until you pretty much change everything. The BMW on default is a long way off the pace but also you really need to push quite hard to get any reasonable pace out of it. Once you push and tweak the setup a little its probably my favorite of the 3. The c7 is a bit lifeless and a bit too stable, the 458 quite a pig to get to turn but its all that can be dialed with some setup tweaks.

The way I see them just based on a single track so far the c7 needs about .5 of ballast the other 2 really are pretty close, maybe a faster track the ferrari will get a bit quicker but here there is hardly anything between the 2.

Looking at laptimes though it seems most are only getting closer to the limits in the c7, I did put my setups for the 458 and m3 in ptracker so people can try those and see if it helps them get any more out of it. Brands is also quite a technical track where line can be worth 1 to 2 seconds alone in any car.

So far, I am seeing this in a spread sheet, when I look at the average differences between times for people who have:

• driven more than 1 car
• done more than 5 laps
• discarding the biggest "outlier" time difference

Corvette 0.1 secs faster than Ferrari (some people are faster in the Corvette, some in the Ferrari)
Corvette 0.8 secs faster than BMW (everyone is faster in the Corvette)
Ferrari 0.7 secs faster than BMW (some people are faster in the Ferrari, some in the BMW)

They are the facts, that is what people are actually doing, no could be/should bes or guesses. You have to look at the average picture, to be fair across the whole group. Not everyone is fast, not everyone drives the cars the same, not everyone will tweak the setup to the nth degree.

[Wally]

Hi,

I did my fair bit of testing. Perhaps strangely, I was fastest in the BMW...

Ferrari: default was driveable but not great. Marty's setup seems to have very strange brake balance. I did my best to try to set it up, but always ended up with something potentially fast, but twitchy like hell. (PS: Marty, I found your setup much better with 66% or more BB instead of 63%)

C7: I did not like it and did not work much on setup, so I think my laps are not so meaningful.

BMW: Marty's setup is really sweet here. Enjoyed and set an almost competitive lap.

All in all, it seems like we might ballast as much as we wish, but the ability (and time) to find a setup that suits you would be really key in a GT2 season.

EDIT: Times (laps):

BMW         1:25.394 (11)
Corvette    1:25.623 (8 )
Ferrari       1:25.988 (19)

Great, I'll plug them into my spread sheet in a bit. Congratulations on being the first person faster in the BMW than the Corvette!

[marty]

I just checked and its surprising that the 458 is clearly the most popular.

458 726 laps
C7R 569 laps
M3 566 laps

Of that in the top 20 laps
13 C7R
5 M3
2 458

Take out my laps in the 458 and BMW
fastest 458 19th 1.422 off the fastest lap
M3 14th 1.228 off the fastest lap

If the 458 was actually quicker then the m3, then considering it has had the most laps by a fair margin I would expect it to be better then 19th fastest. 4 People other then me are also faster then the best other 458 lap and 11 others in the c7. To me thats a fairly clear picture and I thought the main reason for ballast in cars is for parity between the 3 to make ultimate pace very close. If we want ballast to be driver based then I think thats a very different thing to just leveling out the 3 cars.

The one thing Im seeing is those that seem to struggle to get the most out of the cars seem to prefer the 458, maybe this feels better to them but to me it feels horrible as its quite an under steering pig. People that prefer understeer seem to favor the 458 then, understeer is also the slow was around any track so this would explain why those fastest in the 458 tend to also be slower overall. 

[Wally]

Like I said earlier, all I want to achieve is that no car is so unattractive and off the pace that no one would choose it, in which case you might as well not include it.

Maybe another way to look at it is just this, based on the laps we have for people who've set times in more than one car:

• Corvette vs Ferrari - 4 are faster in the Corvette, 2 are faster in the Ferrari
• Corvette vs BMW - 8 are faster in the Corvette, 1 is faster in the BMW
• Ferrari vs BMW - 6 are faster in the Ferrari, 3 are faster in the BMW

Maybe that's not so bad. Maybe some people would still choose the BMW, even if we had no ballast. Another way of forcing the mix up is to mandate a half-time car swap again, so if say the Corvette clearly dominates, it won't dominate the entire season.

Let's switch the server over to Barcelona Moto, and see how the cars stack up there.

[marty]

I will switch the server to Barcelona tomorrow let people get in the last few laps tonight if they want to. The mid season car swap thing makes it interesting and that way you could go ballast free but it still looks like the c7 with about .4 to .5 per lap ballast would even out all 3 fairly well.

The thing with the car swap is those that seem to really not gel with the other cars but do seem to prefer one much more. Forcing them to switch may end up hurting them more but if after testing we find some ballast is needed then it should be so that anyone that gets the most out of any particular car they choose shouldn't be disadvantaged vs the others. Some may not get much out of all 3 and so for obvious reasons would pick one over the others. At Brands at least its not likely youd be miles off in any of the 3 if you were able to get the most out of it.

If the cars have some ballast just to even out the max potential in each then people can freely pick any they like the most and have as good a chance as anyone else in any other car. Sure there will always be differences between each person but for basic BOP I still think it should be mostly based on ultimate pace rather then the average person and what they can get out of it. Sure the majority wouldnt necessarily pick one car maybe the beamer.

But the funny thing I have noticed in the server is if you set a time considerably quicker then what others are setting in a different car. Many leave and come back in the car setting the fastest time. This doesnt mean they will also be faster as not everyone can get the most out of all cars. These 3 all handle fairly different so some will favour one style over the other. The guys that can both set cars up and or adjust to how a car wants to be driven can likely get some good pace out of all 3.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I've run a handful of laps in each car now - around 10 in each.

They all seem pretty similar, the beamer a bit slower but more stable.

[marty]

I've run a handful of laps in each car now - around 10 in each.

They all seem pretty similar, the beamer a bit slower but more stable.

Well seems you have made all 3 within .083 but c7 would surely have another .5 in it if you gave it another run.

What do you guys think of testing them at VIR next, the big mod is fresh off the press.


I will put some hypers on there now but can move these to either there next or to Barcelona Moto.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Yes yes yes yes to VIR

[Wally]

Thanks for your times GB.

VIR looks interesting, but let's stick with Barcelona Moto for this test as we'll get more people on the server with a KS track rather than a mod track.


By making the Corvette 0.65 secs slower and the Ferrari 0.3 seconds slower at Brands, it pretty much balances out the number of people faster in one car than the other e.g. comparing the Corvette and the BMW (or any pair of cars), half the people would be faster in the Corvette and half would be faster in the BMW. It maximises the car balance across the whole range of skill levels (at the fast end, the cars are pretty close, but at the slower end, with less skill to drive each car fast, the Corvette clearly leads over the BMW).


e.g. 3 people are faster in the Corvette, 4 people are faster in the Ferrari
5 people are faster in the Corvette, 4 people are faster in the BMW
4 people are faster in the Ferrari, 5 people are faster in the BMW


So Marty can you please put up the server with [/size]Barcelona Moto, with 85 kg on the Corvette and 35 kg on the Ferrari.
[/size]
[/size]The goal of this exercise is not to equalise the cars (because everyone drives them differently, with a lot of variability, and the spread in times for each person varies a lot) but to balance out the number of people who are faster in one car over the other, over the whole field. Everyone will be able to choose a car that suits them, and there won't be too many "obvious" or one-sided choices.

[marty]

So Marty can you please put up the server with [/size]Barcelona Moto, with 85 kg on the Corvette and 35 kg on the Ferrari.
[/size]
[/size]The goal of this exercise is not to equalise the cars (because everyone drives them differently, with a lot of variability, and the spread in times for each person varies a lot) but to balance out the number of people who are faster in one car over the other, over the whole field. Everyone will be able to choose a car that suits them, and there won't be too many "obvious" or one-sided choices.

Are we meant to read the fine print.

when quoting I can decipher your code, so will put that up now at Barcelona moto.