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How I work out the car allocation

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Online Bacchulum

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2014, 06:17:52 PM »

Online Wally

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2014, 07:57:41 PM »
It's not just about the pointy end of the field though. It's about closing the entire field up, so everybody gets some close racing. The middle guy in last race was pretty much Peter Reid. The system is all about getting everyone to do around about that lap time. Even in the Z4, Guybrush was still faster than Peter Reid. In the Elise SC, he'd be even further away from Peter, not closer.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline marty

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2014, 10:22:46 PM »
Yes but thats where I think those slower should simply get faster cars and there are a few too many in the slower ones. Not that Peter is slow and needs much help normally but its just the example you used in this case. I just see that a few guys are more disadvantaged and I think Dick was lapping much the same times as Guy so thats the tricky bit. Put guy in the Elise will he be too quick for the slower guys in the 240r s3 which is the tricky thing. Its just there is closer gaps between every other car but I wouldnt mind being in the same car as Guybrush as Id like to take him on fairly.

Hes not here this week so I can have another go in the Elise and depending on how that goes maybe I should drop down to Z4 too. But the last 3 tracks will all be different to the last round that much more favored the elise over the cars with higher top speeds. Its always a tricky thing and Im just making suggestions you may want to consider, I though my car was a bit too quick last round and it really didnt give enough chance to those behind. Mopz was also in a car that was a bit too quick but then bird came into it too, the 3 of us by race 3 had a fair gap on the rest of the pack except mopz started last. I just think there was more room to go with others getting quicker cars then me a slower one unless all get put closer to the middle time.

Seeing I the middle time was 96.98 and I had 95.73 then I should have dropped, but so should all these and many were in the elise sc already, so the only place they can go is the z4. Thats everyone from me to Krahl and so if we are all in the z4 there is still 1.4s between me and Krahl so he is at more disadvantage then me and would likely be one of the slowest next round.

Krahl   96.937
Vipergod [Team MRT]   96.928
Dick Forrest [CramDick Racing]   96.761
Enforcer-J   96.709
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels]   96.534
Freezer   96.520
EdWood   96.476
Wally [TKO Racing]   96.418
Ysu [TKO Racing]   96.008
Marty [Achilles Heels]   95.573
Mopz   95.444

Im just thinking that it would be much closer racing through the pack if less people were in elises. Looking at Vipergod and Dick who were in the 240R s3 they were still only 1.355 and 1.188 behind me. So if that was the gap front to back of the pack it would be crazy close, there are probably enough cars to get most others somewhere in between My time and Vipergod. It would also give those .5 to 1 sec off the lead pace more chance and bring that pack in much closer.

Will be interesting next round though as maybe this round was a one off due to the track but still the guys in the elises have been much the same and its almost the same between us as it was in the Abarths. As most of us 6 are in the same car but there is a bit of a time spread that could be reduced with some more moving up in cars.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 10:25:22 PM by marty »

Offline Dick Forrest

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2014, 09:04:03 AM »
I hope you have ear plugs in Wally!
  Don't listen to Marty. He's had a head injury. He carries on like a bit of a pork chop.

I think, at the end of the day. Every one wants the perfect system. when it just wont happen that easily with the tools you have atm.
So don't get sucked in to defending the system you got going Wally!
"it's hard to fly with eagles when you work with a bunch of turkeys"

Online Wally

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2014, 10:10:04 AM »
It's too early to think. The caffeine hasn't kicked in yet. But I listen to everything - it's the only way to learn and improve, especially as we may well use this system again in different cars. So I'll think about it. It is made more difficult by the cars having set gaps in speeds, so it will never be perfect. With ballast at least, if someone needs just 1 more kg, you can do it. There's much more scope for fine tuning.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline marty

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2014, 02:59:56 PM »
Dick I have nothing against the system but Im sure it can always be improved, only by trying different things will you find the best option. There are lots of variables atm so I dont think there will ever be a perfect system and track to track things may change.

An an ideal handicap system it wont make it impossible for anyone to win a race but also any driver should be fairly close to the pole lap or at least best race lap. If anyone is too fast or too slow then something is wrong but also if people in the same cars dont quite match the pace of others in those cars it may be worth trying to change these to even everyone up as much as possible. Also there is another variable where generally the slower guys wont be as consistant and so giving them a car slightly quicker then the faster guys also even out more but its pretty much a black art at that level.

By the sounds of it Ballast has been considered but not yet implemented and no actual time frame but they do see it as something they want to add. The XGN forum spam didn't fall on deaf ears then.

Online Bird

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2014, 08:15:39 PM »
The issue though - as you've already mentioned, Marty - is that next week we'll have a track that does not favour the slow cars anymore.  The whole thing will get a fair bit of a kick in the gut, methinks. 

It's pretty good for now - altho indeed, some of us in the base Elise could be a car up - but I'd wait and see a couple more races how things pan out.

Offline marty

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2014, 11:52:35 AM »
The issue though - as you've already mentioned, Marty - is that next week we'll have a track that does not favour the slow cars anymore.  The whole thing will get a fair bit of a kick in the gut, methinks. 

It's pretty good for now - altho indeed, some of us in the base Elise could be a car up - but I'd wait and see a couple more races how things pan out.

Balancing car to car is always going to be trickier but if there is a gap of 1.5 or more seconds between people in the same car then this would be easier to adust to level these people out more. Finidng which cars will be best to move up or down to is the tricky thing and why I think the z4 just has too large a gap. Unless someone is clearly 1.5 seconds faster then the field if in the same car its useable otherwise not so much. Looking at Wally's charts the other cars are all fairly close but then there may be the issue of if guy is in an Elise sc can dick keep up with him. Does there need to be a faster or slower car? Seeing gaps at the front are generaly smaller or actually more in the middle beyond the first 3 or 4. The first few guys should be in the slowest cars, looking at past seasons the mid pack has always been quite close. I think this means these are the people that shouod be in more similar cars rather then the first 6 to 8 which have generally had about 1 to 2 seconds spread. Then the guys at the back may have another 1 or 2 seconds with most of the midfield covered by less then a second.

There needs to be enough room to move between the fastest and slowest guy and ideally the 2 that would set fastest and slowest laps in a race can get cars that will bring them closer. Then everyone else also be trying to match the lap times. Thats pretty much what Wally is trying to do anyway by trying to match everyone to the mediun time so in theory its the same thing exactly I think.

Just somehow I think the time gaps are too large between people in the same cars so only people really running similar pace to eachother should be in the same car and thats guys averaging inside .5 others should be moved to a car that will get their lap closer to the front of the pack. If the front of pack is getting similar pace between the fastest and slowest guy in even cars then it will mean its doing pretty well.

Wally is doing great as is but Im sure a few small adjustments to the method can be beneficial to get more people racing closer with others.

Offline Enforcer-J

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2014, 02:20:31 PM »
You could argue the fact the handicap system is based on fastest laps and not on average laps (obviously dropping extremes).

You could then argue that consistancy is a bigger part of racing and irrelevant to outright handicapping relating to car potential. But then the purpose of the system is to keep the racing close.

Theres also the issue of driving style and what car suits you better. Whilst the E93 is calculated to be only 0.1 seconds slower over 100 seconds, im a lot faster than that in the 240R as it is so much more predictable, stable and suited to my driving stlye. Whilst I might be able to clock a time 0.1 seconds slower in the beamer, realistically it is a much slower car over a race distance for me.... and even more so racing other cars and not just hotlapping.

Am I complaining? Absolutely not! Im merely pointing out more variables to consider that make the whole system impossible to perfect and from what I saw the other night, the racing was great.... and as long as we are there or there abouts, its all good!

Offline Enforcer-J

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2014, 02:24:09 PM »
Ofcourse that doesnt mean the pursuit for perfection should be abandoned, just that I hope people dont get upset when it doesnt work in their favour ;)

Online Wally

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2014, 04:20:52 PM »
 "Yes but thats where I think those slower should simply get faster cars"
I tried that earlier, and the problem was that the there was no car fast enough for the slowest guys. There’s more room to move with car allocations if you try to get everyone around the middle time, and not either the fastest or the slowest.
 
"I wouldnt mind being in the same car as Guybrush as Id like to take him on fairly"
The goal is to balance everyone out, not just one pair of guys who want to race together.
 
"the last round that much more favored the elise over the cars with higher top speeds"
There are always going to be tracks that favour some cars over others, and that’s part of the fun. To be practical and automated, you have to go on average times across a variety of tracks. Over several rounds, the whole system is auto-balancing because the faster guys get a slower car and the slower guys get a faster car. It will trend towards some kind of equilibrium automatically.
 
"Seeing I the middle time was 96.98 and I had 95.73 then I should have dropped"
Yes, you should have, a little bit, but not as far as the Z4. That would have made you too slow. You only get dropped down a car if it is still faster than the middle lap time you should be doing. You don’t get given a car that is slower than where you should be. Guybrush in the Z4 is still faster than he should be, on paper at least.
 
"An an ideal handicap system it wont make it impossible for anyone to win a race but also any driver should be fairly close to the pole lap or at least best race lap. If anyone is too fast or too slow then something is wrong but also if people in the same cars dont quite match the pace of others in those cars it may be worth trying to change these to even everyone up as much as possible"
There’s a huge amount of variation – car/track combos, how well a car suits you, even how well anyone’s driving on the night. It’s never going to be perfect, but this system, like the ballast system before it, will reduce the gap from the front to the back of the field, especially over time. Each round refines the car allocations even more from the rounds before.
 
"Just somehow I think the time gaps are too large between people in the same cars"
As the gaps get too big, the system will automatically change their cars, depending on the gaps in the cars’ average lap times.
 
This system, as it is, will trend over time towards pushing everyone towards the middle time and giving everyone close racing. It’s never going to be as perfect as ballast allocations, because of the gaps between cars. Because I don’t give someone a car that’s even slower than their theoretical lap time, no one should be unfairly disadvantaged by being too slow. There will be some rounds where it’s harder than others in a given car – but that’s the track variation from round to round. If you end being "too slow" compared to the rest of the field, you’ll get a faster car. It’s not like anyone’s going to be stuck in the Z4 forever.


For interest, I calculated how the lap times for the next round should pan out, based on what you could do in your old car and given the new car you have, on paper. The results are very, very close - again, on paper. The system can't do any better than this.

Median lap time last round: 96.98

 
FlattopExige 240R S3
97.27
GrubbetExige 240R S3
97.71
Dave OM3 E92 Step 1
96.76
SchmittezM3 E92 Step 1
96.90
PhilExige 240R
96.88
GWyarM3 E92
96.63
RPMBMW 1M
96.68
Rob [Team MRT]M3 E92
96.86
BacchulumElise SC S1
96.95
ImperiousElise SC S2
96.89
Peter ReidElise SC S1
96.72
KrahlElise SC
96.94
Vipergod [Team MRT]Exige 240R
96.93
Dick Forrest [CramDick Racing]Exige 240R S3
96.76
Enforcer-JM3 E92
96.86
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels]Z4 E89 S1
96.53
FreezerElise SC
96.52
EdWoodElise SC
96.48
Wally [TKO Racing]Elise SC
96.42
Ysu [TKO Racing]Elise SC
96.01
Marty [Achilles Heels]Elise SC
95.57
MopzElise SC S1
96.74

A couple of observations:
Flattop and Grubbet are still a bit too slow, but they are in the fastest car.
Ysu and Marty are still a bit too fast, but the Z4 would drop them down to be too slow.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline Guybrush Threepwood

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2014, 06:12:08 PM »
It's.so tough to work out accurately.  One way to improve it would be to look at one person's lap time in the different cars rather than just the world records as some of the difference in the world record can be attributed to the drivers, not just the car. Of course then you would need to know that person was trying their best in each car and track combo.

Offline marty

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2014, 08:14:37 PM »
On the practice server atm and had some good battles with schmittez who was in the e92 unfortunatly the other guys in Elises even the higher steps are more off the pace 1 to 2.5 seconds and some of these would benefit from faster cars I think.

Just seems too many elises and the gaps between the guys in these cars could be reduced by handing out a few faster cars I think. Regarding me and Guybrush in the same car there is about .5 between us in the same car but him in a z4 turns the gap about 1.5s so puts me further ahead of him then I am behind if we are in the same cars.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 10:38:59 PM by marty »

Offline Enforcer-J

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Re: How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2014, 08:33:06 PM »
I had an awesome battle with schmittz side by side for 5 laps until we finally touched and the inevitable happened!



Online Gratulin

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How I work out the car allocation
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2014, 09:53:43 PM »
I think we are at the limits of the driver, at least that is the case with me. I am not hitting the apexes consistently and therefore don't carry sufficient speed through the corner and cannot get on the gas early enough. It is not a car allocation problem for me. Having said that, my PB is now 1:17:9. So getting there. Is there still a week left to practise :)