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Ballast

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Offline grat

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2015, 06:37:21 AM »
Sure: I know it is my fault, as I was the one behind. But it was me the heavy one (118kg), not him (0kg).  ;)

Offline Guybrush Threepwood

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2015, 07:33:44 AM »
That is the reason why I normally have contact Grat - assuming someone is taking the same lines and brake points, etc or not allowing them to be faster/slower enough.  It's much more difficult following slower guys than faster guys IMO but after a while you learn who is likely to do what.

Rolz

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2015, 09:16:16 AM »
After last night... will have to have 3 setups ready per race night to cater for the massive swings.

No Ballast, 50KG's and 100KG's... I don't think I'll ever be so fast to get slapped with 150KG's.

Edit - I really need to know how Freezer can get 88KG Ballast after winning R1 and StanDaam and I are ~100KG's?
Also christopheraser is quick, quals quick and then gets nothing in R2?

Really still need to fine tune that calculator  :o
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 09:19:34 AM by Rolz »

Offline Freezer

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2015, 09:24:25 AM »
After last night... will have to have 3 setups ready per race night to cater for the massive swings.

No Ballast, 50KG's and 100KG's... I don't think I'll ever be so fast to get slapped with 150KG's.

Edit - I really need to know how Freezer can get 88KG Ballast after winning R1 and StanDaam and I are ~100KG's?
Also christopheraser is quick, quals quick and then gets nothing in R2?

Really still need to fine tune that calculator  :o
Answer:  Lap times.  I was out in front but I purposely only pushed enough to stay in front.  You set a best lap 3/10ths quicker than my best.  Stan was also marginally quicker on his best time.  Christo only did two laps and was out!
You need to be a bit strategic in the ballast game....

As for set ups you only need to slightly stiffen things to compensate for the weight.  I barely changed mine.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 09:27:29 AM by Freezer »

Offline grat

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2015, 09:44:31 AM »
After last night... will have to have 3 setups ready per race night to cater for the massive swings.

No Ballast, 50KG's and 100KG's... I don't think I'll ever be so fast to get slapped with 150KG's.

Edit - I really need to know how Freezer can get 88KG Ballast after winning R1 and StanDaam and I are ~100KG's?
Also christopheraser is quick, quals quick and then gets nothing in R2?

Really still need to fine tune that calculator  :o
Answer:  Lap times.  I was out in front but I purposely only pushed enough to stay in front.  You set a best lap 3/10ths quicker than my best.  Stan was also marginally quicker on his best time.  Christo only did two laps and was out!
You need to be a bit strategic in the ballast game....

As for set ups you only need to slightly stiffen things to compensate for the weight.  I barely changed mine.

Personally I would not mind to get this strategic aspect of ballast out. That is why I suggested to Wally to use something closer to average lap time instead of fastest lap. I also see that there are a few things one can do to get their ballast down. For example, if you crash on lap 1, your ballast remains the same for next race if you just leave. But you can also go out, set a slow lap time, and lose 40 or 50kg! In general, in a bad race you might decide not to push as 15th or 18th place does not make much of a difference, while 50kg of ballasts next race might mean 10 positions.

Similarly, you might wish to try a 2 stops strategy one day, and then realize this will cost you extra ballast for next race, although you are not really "faster" than others. Last season we had an extra point for fast laps, encouraging you to try hard even if your race was not going well. Now we are reversing the incentives, instead.

Don't misunderstand me: every rule is a rule, and once a rule is in place, you play that game, and I am sure we will all have lots of fun doing it. But personally I found last season's ballast rules easier to understand and less incline to be bent. But this is probably just my preferences. So please do not mind about it too much :)

Rolz

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2015, 09:56:59 AM »
Answer:  Lap times.  I was out in front but I purposely only pushed enough to stay in front.  You set a best lap 3/10ths quicker than my best.  Stan was also marginally quicker on his best time.  Christo only did two laps and was out!
You need to be a bit strategic in the ballast game....

Hmm... this is then where is starts to get interesting/annoying (unsure which one I'm feeling)

Us 3 were so far in front on race one that had I known (no ones fault but my own here) this I would have also eased off and sat behind StanDaam for the 3rd place instead of pushing for the win...

I then see this season becoming a "meah that's good enough, why try harder if I'm going to get pinged for it... "

Just take the points and you'll have a heaps better possibility of getting more points next race if ur not some pack mule...

My definition of racing just got an appendix

 ???

Offline marty

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2015, 11:18:28 AM »
There is strategy aspect to it which kind of makes it a bit tricky as the guys with lots of ballast need to try their hardest to not come last, but then those that are low ballast can just pace themselves to ensure they don't get so much ballast. Then you have examples like Guybrush and Jeremey who both should have dropped lots of ballast for race 2 Jeremy and next round Guybrush. But as there is special extra ballast for some the strategic option doesn't really work.

This is why I suggest that ballast should be on best lap but either race or qualy, so if someone wants to play the game and pace themselves this will include having to back off in qualy and not just the race. The formula should also be the same for all and it was clear in race 2 lots were pacing themselves as even with my heavy car I came back from last to 6th but that was giving it full qualy pace once my car was fixed. I could have stayed out with a damaged car and been on 1:50 pace all race which technically would have dropped my ballast for the next race but seeing both Jeremey and GB did that, thanks to past history they have "special" rules applied to ensure they aren't too light the next race.

Offline Wally

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2015, 01:11:21 PM »
All points read... I will reply tonight.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline Guybrush Threepwood

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2015, 06:02:19 PM »
I still think Ballast is the way to go, but may just need a couple of tweaks.  What if:

* Everyone without lap data from 2 qual + 2 races (4 sessions) is given the average amount of ballast - 70/80 kg?  This way you don't have newbies (or those that purposely set a slow time in their first race/round) out of position.

* Ballast is based on quickest lap over 4 sessions - so one whole round.  This way the ballast is consistent for everyone for that round and people can't tank in one session to benefit the other.  If they want to tank they effectively have to ruin both their races - by qualifying poorly and putting in slow lap times in the race.

They are the only tweaks I would consider as I think the calculations and system are very, very good but it's just the starting weights that may cause some fluctuations for a few rounds and also "behaviour modification"due to singular snapshot of data being used.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 06:05:23 PM by Guybrush Threepwood »

Offline Wally

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2015, 08:18:10 PM »
 The ballast is largely successful - the racing was closer, and there were lots of tight battles, with different people in the mix. Take out a few anomalies (damaged cars or pedals, new joiners), and lap times were very, very close across a big, diverse field.

But reading everyone's comments, here are the problems I see with the ballast system, and what can be done about it:

1. New season starters are too light, and too fast
This can be fixed by giving people some average ballast amount as a starting point, as suggested. Everyone’s already in the game, so it’s no longer an issue, but if and when someone else joins, I can do this.

2. Ballast can swing too high and too low
Ballast can sometimes go too high, slowing someone too much, so next race, it goes too low, and they’re then too fast, and their ballast starts oscillating up and down. Most people just slowly trend to an equilibrium, especially if they’re very consistent. The fix for this is like any spring – add damping. I’ll start only changing ballast by 70% of the calculated amount. That will stop too large a change and reduce the likelihood of ballast “overshooting” the correct mark and starting to oscillate.

3. If someone’s damaged and slow, ballast is distorted
If someone’s too slow, slower than normal because of damage perhaps, they will drop too much ballast. The fix for that is, as suggested, to take the fastest of qualifying laps as well as race laps as your benchmark. That way, if someone is slow in a race because of damage, or doesn’t get enough laps in, we have their qualifying laps to go by as well as their race laps


Now, a ballast FAQ.
Fast guys have no chance of winning
Not true. The ballast system doesn’t push fast guys to the back of the pack – it pushes everyone towards the middle. It aims to make everyone’s lap time the same, so everyone has a chance of winning. It comes down to racecraft and adaptability.

People can game the system
Every system of rules can be gamed. For example:
“Top 10 reversed”
 - People will try to come 10th so they start the next race on pole.
“World Rally Championship: the leader goes out first on day 2, and has to sweep the road clean for everyone else”
 - Leaders deliberately drop time so that they don’t lead at the end of day 1.
“V8 Supercars: You get 3 cuts before a penalty”
 - Save the cuts for the end of the race and then use them up to gain time.
In our system, that’s why you get points for carrying ballast. It’s an incentive to go as fast as you can and get the appropriate ballast, to be rewarded in the season standings. How you play the game is all part of the fun. Are you going to slow down to avoid more ballast, but take the risk of the guy behind catching you?

I have to adjust my car setup as my ballast changes
Yes, you do. The “Car Engineer” app is your friend (you have to have dev apps enabled in assetto_corsa.ini). It shows spring frequencies and damper rates. Take note of settings that work for you, and then set your car up to match those frequencies and rates, and you will maintain your car balance. Check your gear ratios.

The system shouldn't need manual intervention
You'll always need some kind of human checks and balances. Guybrush's really slow lap times due to damage causing him to drop ballast are a case in point. But using qual and race laps to get your fastest time, as well as the "damping", will help a lot towards needing to do this.


Some specific answers:

* Ballast is based on quickest lap over 4 sessions - so one whole round.
The ballast works better the more times you adjust it, as it has more "data" to work on. If you only do it once a round, that's only 6 or 7 opportunities to adjust it up or down, instead of 12 or 14, so I don't think that change is necessary.

Edit - I really need to know how Freezer can get 88KG Ballast after winning R1 and StanDaam and I are ~100KG's?
Also christopheraser is quick, quals quick and then gets nothing in R2?
As I said elsewhere, ballast is not based on your finish position, but your lap times. Even though Freezer won the race, his best lap time was 0.3 secs slower than yours, so he gets less ballast.
christopheraser only did 2 race laps, so got no change in ballast, but looking at qual laps as well will stop this.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline Guybrush Threepwood

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2015, 08:30:41 PM »
Sounds good Wally.

What about everyone with no qual/race data for the season starting with a certain amount of ballast?

Offline Wally

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2015, 08:31:43 PM »
Sounds good Wally.

What about everyone with no qual/race data for the season starting with a certain amount of ballast?

Yep, that's the whole "give them an average ballast" idea above.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline Guybrush Threepwood

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2015, 08:32:53 PM »
ah, cool. I missed that.

Cheers.

G0RGAK

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2015, 09:18:49 PM »
While I'm not quick enough to get ballast, thought I would add my 2 cents.  :)

Ballast should be the same for race 1 and 2, if people are spending a lot of time getting a setup sorted pre-race, then to have the weight changed and their setup rendered useless seems a bit unfair. Unless we do a 2nd practice session, but I think our Tuesday nights are, while awesome, long enough.

Rolz

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Re: Ballast
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2015, 12:05:48 AM »
Thanks Wally... you have had lots of experience with ballast I'm def still learning and appreciate all the thought and effort that goes into evening the pack out for close racing :)

My questions are for me to understand the system and am thankful for the explanation!  ;D

 

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