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S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat

Author Topic: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat  (Read 29592 times)

Offline StanDaam

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2015, 01:00:26 PM »
Fancy Four Screens!!!  :D

Offline Wally

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2015, 01:11:46 PM »
It's all up for interesting discussion. We all know it's never black and white - that's racing. No one needs to get their noses out of joint, and I'd hope for more maturity from everyone in this league to argue their points without resorting to "well, I'll just do what I want" arguments (and I'm not just talking about Marty's comment above).
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline marty

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2015, 01:54:43 PM »
My comment was meant to be a little sarcastic, but I find it odd that in that case it seems as Im at fault according to both Bird and Wally.

I think you should give racing room to anyone that has any overlap if they are inside or out at any point of the track. Im not saying its a deliberate crash but the fact the outside car doesnt see the inside car doesnt make the inside car at fault its still the outside car that didnt give racing room.

If I am wrong then id like to hear why and I can change my driving in the future. Both if I am inside or outside as it seems the outside car is entitiled to its racing line but inside needs to stop and wait til the car ahead has taken the apex before its allowed any part of the corner.


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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2015, 01:59:56 PM »
it sucks but I would put that down as a race incident... at a track like Silverstone those first few corners we really have to be aware of who is around us as it's pretty congested for those initial stages... my 2c

Offline marty

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2015, 02:14:35 PM »
I dont care so much about being taken out, I have no chance this season anyway. It is a tricky section of track and it easy for the outside car to make that mistake. I just dont see how it can be seen the inside car is at fault.

Anyway to stir the pot a little more having a look at first 2 races qualy quite a few times were set with cuts. I think if people get a cut with PLP they should back off and abandon the lap otherwise its rather pointless to have the app if people dont observe track limits in qualifying.

There maybe should be some penalty for people setting a lap in qualifying with a cut. Ideally if the ingame lap invalidation would work just for qualy and be turned off for race where we can just use plp would be best.

Inola is the next round and large amounts of time can be gained with cuts so it would be good if we knew if there is or isnt a penalty for abusing track limits in qualifying

Offline Wobblyone

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2015, 02:51:17 PM »
Yea on discussion of cutting there a few corners I freely admit I was running it very wide On certain bends not always out of choice and sometimes because it felt natural... as were many others..

.but I assumed that as the cut track app wasn't triggering it was legal...many circuits drivers use the maximum they can get away with...so really we need a discussion before the races as to what is and isn't deemed acceptable as to using run off areas.

Offline Wobblyone

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2015, 03:13:12 PM »
And my thoughts on the overlap thing is if you are not pretty much along side by the turn point  in the inside/car coming from behind should pull out of the move if you are not.

the only times I think this isn't applicable is if u are part of a freight train following through on the initial pass and gap made by another driver...or certain bends where there is the room.

Like wally says accidents are always going to happen, as long as we can discuss it like adults learn and move on all good. We all love our racing, and remember  it's just a game no one died ;)

Offline Bird

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2015, 03:52:17 PM »
Marty, that was my normal line - I did not see nor expect anyone there, lap one or not. It's past the first couple of turns, I've full use of track, normal rules apply.
But I understand where you're coming from.

And all things considered, I'd not have turned in on you had I known you're there, I'm sure you know that.  It'd be evil (which fits me!), but also utterly stupid of me (and that does not fit).  :D   
So I'll install helicorsa - it seems I need it

I understand your point, but I think even in real racing it's a contentious point - usually they say if you have a significant overlap - eg you're up to the B pillar at the braking point - then you have the line, otherwise back off. 

I was going by that measure.  It looked to me you were behind.  (I've checked my replay)

I'm not trying to lecture you or accuse you, simply giving you the info you've asked for.  Still friends? ;)


Edit: I've looked at your vid after all (I don't have flash installed on this browser so it takes a bit of trickery) and even that up to b-pillar at the braking is a funny question here, because I had to start braking earlier.    Anyway, I'm sorry it has happened, I'm sure you're too - let's move on.

The cutting will be a really interesting question.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 03:59:11 PM by Bird »

Offline marty

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2015, 04:33:58 PM »
Bird I know had you known I was there you wouldnt have turned in which is why it was an accident. I was just saying I cant see how its the inside cars fault if the outside car doesnt see them. Its nothing personal I just want a clear understanding of what is and isnt expected so everyone knows where they should give racing room and where they dont have to.

Regarding overlap we need a clear definition not just a vague one up to interpretation. As wobbly said pretty much infront or some overlap doesnt help much.  Saying B pillar at least gives us a point to look at. For a friendly type league I think any overlap may be a better option but its not up to me. Even if you give someone the inside it doesnt mean they will get the position as they will have less road on exit and so be slower out of the turn quite likely.

We just need this defined so we all know what is expected. Ac side Mirrors are useless and in that part of track with both cars on very different lines its going to be near impossible for the outside car to see someone there.

Regarding cuts in qualy and track limits the PLP app defines the track limits. If you exceed them it clearly says on the app you have cut and why its meant to be used by all so we all need to stick to the same track limits. In results this also shows cuts next to any person that exceeded limits on that lap so its not really needing to be defined more then what the app says.

Offline Guybrush Threepwood

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2015, 04:42:29 PM »
Basic rule in any real racing series anywhere in the world is that if the front of your car is up to the B pillar on the inside of another car at turn in then you have the corner apex.  It's not written in a rule book anywhere but that is a fundamental understanding.

Not Mary's fault IMO, just a racing incident and I'm sure Bird would have given some more room if he knew the yellow peril was up the inside.

About to leave KL for home so look forward to seeing everyone on track soon. :)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 04:44:05 PM by Guybrush Threepwood »

Offline Wobblyone

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2015, 04:45:05 PM »
Thanks for clearing up the cut thing...it's odd that it lets u run very very wide at silver stone without penalising you..there are areas on the track having raced there that if I used in a meeting I'd be in the control tower talking to the clerk of the course lol.

Re overlap in real world situations u generally get along side before turn in and steal the corner holding the other guy out wide we has to get off the throttle, u win generally..the Other type is passing right up to the apex on turn in BUT you have to again be along side stealing that bit of track stopping him from using it...u can't just be 3/4 or half way along them u pretty much have to have your whole car or bike in that hole..then even slamming in a block pass a lot of guys get upset saying you are to aggressive lol.

Offline Bird

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2015, 04:46:03 PM »
I do agree, it'd be probably a good idea to say "any overlap exists at the braking" (start of braking) as it's very clear.  B-pillar, not so much.  "significant overlap" - as loose a definition as it gets. However, two problems I see
- it's not really nice to ask someone to give up a faster line just because I got my nose in.  There will be a lot of grumbling I reckon. (altho we can ask what people think!)
- we'd probably need to make the helicorsa app mandatory - and tbh I haven't even tried it, so I can't comment on this
- edit: ok third problem; where is the cutoff?  braking start point? turn-in? anywhere?  even these are somewhat loose definitions - especially using different cars with different braking points, and different lines...

But even then, there'll be accidents.  I've found over the years that no matter how meticulously you try to define things, there are always contentious cases.   Just sayin'.


Maybe for now, just make the helicorsa a very much recommended, and keep it as it is. 

As I said, if I had helicorsa on, I'd not have turned in.
I've actually driven the outside line a lot in the previous races that night, racing with others, (eg Dion). For some reason there and then my brain said enough, and I went for it that time.  Wrong decision :)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 04:49:48 PM by Bird »

Offline Wally

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2015, 06:32:35 PM »
Anyway to stir the pot a little more having a look at first 2 races qualy quite a few times were set with cuts. I think if people get a cut with PLP they should back off and abandon the lap otherwise its rather pointless to have the app if people dont observe track limits in qualifying.

There maybe should be some penalty for people setting a lap in qualifying with a cut. Ideally if the ingame lap invalidation would work just for qualy and be turned off for race where we can just use plp would be best.

Inola is the next round and large amounts of time can be gained with cuts so it would be good if we knew if there is or isnt a penalty for abusing track limits in qualifying

Ideally, a cut lap in qually should be invalidated. I can't do that automatically via the app - it would have to be an honesty system. What I could do in the app is flash a warning when you cut the track in qually that you have to slow down to "throw away" that lap. I also can't restart the server to turn AC's penalties off before the race session, because then you lose the qualifying positions. I'm a bit hamstrung by the limited control that AC gives admins at the moment. But I will look at the qualifying warning message idea.

In terms of the race cuts, the rule would be "If you can get away with it, take it". That's pretty much like real life. The app can only enforce the track limits that AC itself sets, so if AC gives you some leniency at some corners, then the app will too.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline Wobblyone

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2015, 06:36:13 PM »
Hey wally What's the story with the quali sessions sometimes coming back in with only a few minutes left.

Offline Wally

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Re: S6R2: Silverstone International Post-Race Chat
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2015, 06:42:29 PM »
Hey wally What's the story with the quali sessions sometimes coming back in with only a few minutes left.

That's as posted in the season signup thread - I deliberately make the last qualifying session short enough for 1 or 2 hotlaps, to simulate a bit of shootout pressure. With the lap time being so short at Silv. Int, I realise I made the qually a little too short, because it took me a minute and a half just to load up the track and cars!

Re the B pillar overlap thing, while the general principle applies, we also have to take into account the reduced peripheral vision in sim racing. B pillar overlap or not, I will always put more responsibility for avoiding an incident on the car that can actually see the other car, over the car that can't see the other. But the blinded car still needs to give racing room , subject to the overlap. It's the worst area in sim racing (or all racing?) I reckon - when the car in front tries to take their normal line in a corner while someone's coming up the inside.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

 

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