[doobs]

So sorry for the lack of notice and not showing up. I'm building a new PC and totally forgot about it till a couple of hours ago. Probably a good thing for some.
Darren

[marty]

Freezer (a.k.a The Mobile Roadblock)

Of course if you were faster you would have just passed me . .

All round good nights racing.  I had many long and close fought battles with the likes of Marty, Stan, Matthew etc all of which were clean and well done.  Very important to pick the "right line" and be super smooth as one slip and people are passing you.

I wonder whether a bit more slip stream effect would spice it up as there is next to none at the moment!

There is no way to exaggerate slip stream and personally I wouodnt want that. I think the way it is is fine and as you said if your faster you will get past, you still need some form of defense and it shouldnt make passing too easy with artificial aids lime higher draft or even a DRS gimmick.

I find it more enjoyabe if its more challenging and if some people you may not be able to pass all race then thats a good thing not a bad one. It was clear you could pass people and especially if it was not a 1 on 1 battle trying to make a move on the car ahead could make you vulnerable to the cars behind.

This is one of the reasons Ive enjoyed the racing much more in the reverse grid format then regular start races. Sure race 1 Matthew put lots of pressure on me so at least that kept it fairly interestig but looking at the graph from that race it shows most of the field was simply getting larger gaps each lap ahead and behind. Also  really dont care if I win races from the back its more of a key to not lose to your near championship rivals, winning from the back will need some luck. Sure your trying to finish as high up as possible each race but the battle with Matthew race 3 I enjoyed quite a bit as I knew that was going to decide the round win and I needed to beat him by a few places and also get the fastest lap which luckily I managed. He got me good in race 2 and race 1 I managed to hang on just ahead of him with him putting very good pressure on me with some solid pace.

Look at the hunter and hunted stats and you can see how many cars were within 1 second of cars ahead and behind all race in the last 2 but race 1 it was pretty much just me and Matthew that stayed close that race.

[Bacchulum]

Why is DRS always referred to as a gimmick?
Movable aero originated in the '60s and if Colin Chapman's design hadn't caused a crash, it never would have been banned.
It's more like bringing back some purity than a gimmick.

[Mael]

Look at the hunter and hunted stats and you can see how many cars were within 1 second of cars ahead and behind all race in the last 2 but race 1 it was pretty much just me and Matthew that stayed close that race.

Do not forget Bacculum, Freezer and me in race 1!

Race 2 was a disaster for me, looked away for a moment to find a brand new car parking lot opened at T7? Could not stop in time and thus caused the massive pile-up in the first lap of race 2. I think Hylas was likely the most affected so appologies Hylas!

[marty]

Why is DRS always referred to as a gimmick?
Movable aero originated in the '60s and if Colin Chapman's design hadn't caused a crash, it never would have been banned.
It's more like bringing back some purity than a gimmick.

Moveable aero is rather different as I am fairly sure in the 60's this would not have been limited only to certain sections of track and only to the cars following within a certain distance. That is purely a gimmick to try to make passing more possible and its always a balance between making it too easy and not doing enough. After all if its there it should aid in a pass if it doesnt its a fail, if it makes it impossible to hold position its also a fail. Having moveable aero I think in a car not used purely as DRS for passing is not a bad thing, having it as is used in f1 is a gimmick and nothing else.

[Freezer]

My example would be Formula Ford.  They utilise the natural aero hole created by the car in front to make passes all the time.  They too are under powered yet the effect is there.  In these cars there is virtually no tow created however realistically there should be a small one, and I do only mean a small one that would maybe get you alongside....

[Gratulin]

I prefer to view DRS as a system that overcomes the aero problems of F1 where overtaking is impossible due to the aero disturbance caused when following a car. Too often an F1 car which is quicker cannot overtake due to this aero disturbance effect. DRS allows them to overtake.

[marty]

If there was no draft then it wouldnt have made t1 the easiest place to pass at this track.  The trick was getting the line into the last turn when close up to someone was not easy and if you miss the entry exit there then there clearly isnt enough draft.

I have found the draft levels in all official cars to be fairly believable but it also depends on the track. During the race following close the draft was clearly there but quite often at most sections of track I needed to back of or go outside as the car ahead simply needed to hit the apex and there wasnt much you could do to pass them.

Only the main straight was it long enough that even a tiny draft would allow you to get alongside and enter t1 side by side. From there you could make the move inside or out but if someone defended properly it still wasnt an easy pass.

[marty]

I prefer to view DRS as a system that overcomes the aero problems of F1 where overtaking is impossible due to the aero disturbance caused when following a car. Too often an F1 car which is quicker cannot overtake due to this aero disturbance effect.

Still in F1 many passes are made without the assistance of DRS. Considering most tracks we are using this season are pretty short there arent that many easy draft passes. Had we had rounds at Monza, Mugello or any large tracks the draft effect wpuld be fairly large.

The way the draft works is you need to be quite close to get am effect in these cars and I think thats reasonable. Its not like these cars are so high drag that you would expect the same draft as if running Formula Abarths ornother high aero low power cars.

[Gratulin]

I prefer to view DRS as a system that overcomes the aero problems of F1 where overtaking is impossible due to the aero disturbance caused when following a car. Too often an F1 car which is quicker cannot overtake due to this aero disturbance effect.

Still in F1 many passes are made without the assistance of DRS. Considering most tracks we are using this season are pretty short there arent that many easy draft passes. Had we had rounds at Monza, Mugello or any large tracks the draft effect wpuld be fairly large.

The way the draft works is you need to be quite close to get am effect in these cars and I think thats reasonable. Its not like these cars are so high drag that you would expect the same draft as if running Formula Abarths ornother high aero low power cars.

Especially since the GP2 young guns joined F1

[Bacchulum]

Still in F1 many passes are made without the assistance of DRS.

That's all down to Pirelli degradation, which they get no credit for.
If Michelin were back with enduro tyres, DRS passes would be it.

[grat]

I agree with Marty on this. The draft in AC seems perfectly believable. Open wheelers (even without downforce) have a huge drag factor. But slim sportcars with covered wheels not so much. Furthermore, without high speeds the wake is quite short, so you have to be fairly close to have a significant effect.

As for the DRS in formula one: my impression from watching old races (70s and 80s) is that the viewer had so much less information about tyres, little problems with the car and so on that it made it look like these guys were fighting more. But actually we see plenty of passes today when cars are on different strategies or when someone has troubles getting tyres to temp or keeping them alive, even without DRS. Honestly, the only thing that really seems to have changed in F1 in the past 20 or 30 years is that cars do not break anymore so often, and when little problems develop, they have plenty of sensors to warn them and they can try to change a bit the driving style to keep going. Another issue though is that mistakes got less punitive, as runoff areas are huge. This especially made the arrival of rain less of a huge deal. Think of Silverstone 2014: both Mercedes would have been retired if there was gravel and grass when they made mistakes in the first wet lap.

The problem of the DRS is that if we want to have a fight really for position we need to overcome the fact that these cars rely so much on the front wing grip that they need a help to follow close. The DRS seems to work a bit better than the KERS (or the button to pass in Indycars) so at least for now it is the best we got. Of course we do not have this problem in racing cars that if anything lift more than forcing down, like the GT86. that is why it is easy to follow close in these. But passing is and will always be harder than following close, unless of course you are at Monza. But I find it a great thing to have different tracks with different characteristics. Isn't that the cool challenge?

EDIT: of course once upon a time they could also miss a gear any now and then, and especially in the 80s this must have been a huge issue in battles.

[Bacchulum]

Of course we do not have this problem in racing cars that if anything lift more than forcing down, like the GT86. that is why it is easy to follow close in these.

Exactly.
Slipstreaming reduces aero forces (both drag and lift (F1 cars produce negative lift)).
As these cars produce positive lift you actually gain grip by following close.

[marty]

Still in F1 many passes are made without the assistance of DRS.

That's all down to Pirelli degradation, which they get no credit for.
If Michelin were back with enduro tyres, DRS passes would be it.

I find it hard to believe tyre deg causes people to pass other cars in the first 2 laps before DRS when they are passing people on the same tyres with the same amount of wear.

[Bacchulum]

Still in F1 many passes are made without the assistance of DRS.

That's all down to Pirelli degradation, which they get no credit for.
If Michelin were back with enduro tyres, DRS passes would be it.

I find it hard to believe tyre deg causes people to pass other cars in the first 2 laps before DRS when they are passing people on the same tyres with the same amount of wear.

Oh, but it does!
Some cars are setup and some drivers drive to care for the tyre, others don't do it so well.