Xtreme Gaming Network

The driving standards thread

Author Topic: The driving standards thread  (Read 35899 times)

Offline killagorilla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
  • Karma: -2
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2020, 10:18:59 PM »
Of course I'm biased here, but I still don't understand how some people can put this little nudge in turn 1 on a level with what happened in turn 3.
What happened in turn 1?
Pretty much nothing...there was a slight contact two cars going side-by-side.
What happened in turn 3?
One car (with plenty of space on the inside) came in too hot and shoved the car it was trying to overtake off track.
We are supposed to redress.
Redressing of the Volvo in turn 1 doesn't make sense to me as both cars were pretty much side-by-side.
I don't say what happened in turn 1 was 100% correct, but if we argued about that sort of stuff we wouldn't find the time to actually do any racing.
I personally don't find it too funny being shoved into the sand and potentially losing multiple positions while trying to get back on track.
What would you say if there was just a wall there and the Volvo was f'd up?

Offline Mael

  • RestrictedRacing
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1045
  • Karma: 21
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2020, 11:19:51 PM »
I take it this is to give Wally some idea where the boundaries are, so here are my comments for corner 3.

Corner 3 is a high speed corner, moves from a wide to a narrow part of the track with a sausage curb on the inside, in effect a reducing radius corner. For a successful clean pass the inside car (attacker) must be almost fully alongside the defender, once in that position the attacker may use the full with of the track on corner exit.

So was the pass fair? No. I was never far enough alongside. By that time the red mist has come down and making a fair pass wasn't the idea. I made sure Killa knew I was on the inside and that I was going for the pass. Also left enough space for him to bail out of the corner without losing too much time but not to contest the corner.

Quote
Intention matters not, only consequence (at least in Australian law).

Not sure on that one. My jail term for shooting Bacchulum would very much depend if it was by accident or on purpose even though the consequences to him would be identical.





Offline killagorilla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
  • Karma: -2
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #62 on: September 27, 2020, 12:06:48 AM »
I take it this is to give Wally some idea where the boundaries are, so here are my comments for corner 3.

...Also left enough space for him to bail out of the corner without losing too much time but not to contest the corner.


Sorry mate, I've got no idea how I was supposed to bail out of this situation in turn 3.
You were half a car length behind me when you hit me and the racing line was mine of course..."contest the corner", I don't understand...where do you want me to go?
Mael, just for your information, side-by-side racing works differently. I hope you're the only one here seeing it this way...I could deal with that.
Wally, maybe you can tell Mael not to make that sort of stuff a habit. I mean he did f up my race a bit earlier...that's no fun.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 12:22:20 AM by killagorilla »

Offline Bacchulum

  • RestrictedRacing
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3399
  • Karma: 96
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #63 on: September 27, 2020, 07:33:57 AM »
Quote
Intention matters not, only consequence (at least in Australian law).

Not sure on that one. My jail term for shooting Bacchulum would very much depend if it was by accident or on purpose even though the consequences to him would be identical.
I knew someone would use the one and only example where intention is considered (and even then only after the conclusion of guilt). ::)
But even that doesn't alleviate guilt, it just affects the punishment (if there was no intent you're still guilty of manslaughter). ;)

I'm not considering all the tips and taps, bumps and 'rubbing', only the rule, "if there is overlap you must leave a cars width".
And that was only breached once, on one corner, but it was breached.

2+2=√16

Offline Wally

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11033
  • Karma: 152
  • AC Admin
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2020, 08:59:44 AM »
Good discussion. Thanks all for putting your thoughts in. It goes to show how there's no black and white answers to a lot of situations, and at the end of the day the umpire has to make a call that people just have to accept and move on from.

My goal here is to make people think about their driving, so that everyone can feel like they are in a fair battle for position.

Intention does count. A deliberate shunt is much worse than an accidental one. But you also have to take the consequences into account, i.e. how much was the other driver impeded.

In turn 1, Volvo ran a bit wide, but Nissan wasn't really impacted much. Racing incident.
In turn 3, it's up to the behind car to make a clean pass. The Nissan only got alongside the Volvo deep in the corner, and then bumped the Volvo off the racing line, so I would not class that as a clean or fair pass. There's not much the Volvo could have done that deep into the corner. If you're side by side entering the corner, the outside car should leave room. But to only get alongside mid-corner, when the leading car is already committed to the corner, then you've left your pass too late.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 09:12:54 AM by Wally »
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
  • Karma: 39
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2020, 11:18:49 AM »
It's also good to remember everyone races a little differently and learning how people race allows you behave accordingly.

After racing here a long time I've come to know a lot of traits of the other racers which helps me make decisions on what do it. I went side by side through the corkscrew with freezer and there is prob only 2 other people I'd have done that with. If it was someone else I'd have backed out.

Not saying to me that didn't look more like mael outbreaking himself and not keeping the inside line but I'd have never tried a move like that on killa wether I thought I could hold the inside or not.

I also know killa and mael had an off earlier in the race and what lead up to that probably impacted both their attitudes in this video with t1 and t3.

Offline killagorilla

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
  • Karma: -2
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #66 on: September 27, 2020, 01:03:26 PM »
Mael was pissed off because he thought I ran into him at the start. He lost his position to me and I think someone else on top of that.
Then, during the race, it turned out he was faster than me and he got stuck behind me. He said he got frustrated and at some point he got to a stage where he didn't care whether an overtaking attempt goes bad.
Well, that's what happened then of course. He ran into me at turn 10 without any chance of passing me there. He redressed...and we ended up last.
Same story continued after that. He made an overtaking attempt at turn 3, with hardly any chance of success...pushed me off track and went off. He said, he didn't care about the negative effect on my race when he did that. That's a lot of shit for one race. I don't know what this little contact at turn one has to do with that...and why that justifies what he's done.
Then he figures out that this incident at the start has nothing to do with me, but someone else ran into him.
To be honest, I would have been pissed off myself if I got stuck behind a car, which gained the position in front of me by running into me and causing me to lose positions earlier in the race.
What I don't understand is Mael's strange ideas about me in his eyes contesting turn 3. That sort of thinking pisses me off. I didn't contest turn 3...I just bloody raced there.
If he wants to contest it just because he's angry, then, at least, do it in a fair manner...and if you f it up, at least redress.
I've had plenty of great side-by-side racing with some very skilled and fair people here. The last special one was just at Bathurst, where Brad and me went through the Cutting side-by-side.
I can do that. Of course I've made mistakes and I've done stupid things.
This thing here does smell badly though. Mael literally admitted that he didn't care whether he's causing crashes or not.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 01:06:32 PM by killagorilla »

Offline Bacchulum

  • RestrictedRacing
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3399
  • Karma: 96
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #67 on: September 27, 2020, 03:52:56 PM »
It goes to show how there's no black and white answers to a lot of situations,
My final thoughts, it is black and white, until you try to mind-read intentions. ;) :-X

2+2=√16

Offline Jarmel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 11
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2020, 04:05:10 PM »
I take it this is to give Wally some idea where the boundaries are, so here are my comments for corner 3.

Corner 3 is a high speed corner, moves from a wide to a narrow part of the track with a sausage curb on the inside, in effect a reducing radius corner. For a successful clean pass the inside car (attacker) must be almost fully alongside the defender, once in that position the attacker may use the full with of the track on corner exit.



No you still have to leave room if the other car is still beside you on the exit. Just because your nose is in front doesn't mean you own the road.

We had an incident at monza in ACC , just because your nose is in front doesn't entitle you to the all the track . You haven't made a pass until you are clear up til that point you need to leave room.  Yet you were angry at me for defending while you are overtaking and saying i should of yielded even tho we were still side by side more or less.   

Offline Wally

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11033
  • Karma: 152
  • AC Admin
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #69 on: September 27, 2020, 05:57:43 PM »
I've got the perfect game for you Seanus...
[youtube]uaY3TpIQNH0[/youtube]
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline buellersdayoff

  • RestrictedRacing
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 908
  • Karma: 31
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #70 on: September 27, 2020, 09:12:45 PM »
It looks a lot different from the cockpit when racing and fuelled by adrenalin and sometimes frustration, everyone makes mistakes so it's important to remain calm. Learn from them. Two incidents linked by a bit of door rubbing. T1 both cars out braked themselves, the Volvo swerving a bit in fear of rear ending the other car and starting the bumping run to t3. T3 Nissan took a dive, looks as though was barely going to make the turn anyways and bounced off the Volvo sending it.

Offline Mael

  • RestrictedRacing
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1045
  • Karma: 21
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #71 on: September 27, 2020, 10:03:17 PM »
We had an incident at monza in ACC , just because your nose is in front doesn't entitle you to the all the track . You haven't made a pass until you are clear up til that point you need to leave room.  Yet you were angry at me for defending while you are overtaking and saying i should of yielded even tho we were still side by side more or less.

Ahhh  Monza chicane. Wish they buldoze that corner. Two wide on the exit there end up in tears probably 50% of the time.

I also disagree that there always should be space left on the outside. It is corner/situation depended. For example Phil and I went into the fast uphill left-hander at Laguna Seca side by side. I did not leave space on the outside for him. The only time where I would leave space on that corner is if I'm a lot slower than the other driver and accept there are no way of keeping him (or her) behind me.

Offline Jarmel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 242
  • Karma: 11
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #72 on: September 28, 2020, 12:26:30 AM »
We had an incident at monza in ACC , just because your nose is in front doesn't entitle you to the all the track . You haven't made a pass until you are clear up til that point you need to leave room.  Yet you were angry at me for defending while you are overtaking and saying i should of yielded even tho we were still side by side more or less.

Ahhh  Monza chicane. Wish they buldoze that corner. Two wide on the exit there end up in tears probably 50% of the time.

I also disagree that there always should be space left on the outside. It is corner/situation depended. For example Phil and I went into the fast uphill left-hander at Laguna Seca side by side. I did not leave space on the outside for him. The only time where I would leave space on that corner is if I'm a lot slower than the other driver and accept there are no way of keeping him (or her) behind me.

This is the crux of the matter. I believe and i thought anyone who sim races would always try and leave room in these situations as its the done thing , Therefore i am presuming you are alone in thinking its ok not to leave room on exit ?    If there is overlap you leave room when overtaking period no exceptions in my book. That doesn't mean mistakes don't happen.
 If others would like to pipe up and say my thinking is wrong i'm all ears .

Offline Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
  • Karma: 39
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #73 on: September 28, 2020, 08:51:39 AM »
I also disagree that there always should be space left on the outside. It is corner/situation depended. For example Phil and I went into the fast uphill left-hander at Laguna Seca side by side. I did not leave space on the outside for him.

And this goes back to what I'm talking about different people racing in different ways. Some will always give space and some won't. Once you know who those people are you adjust accordingly to save issues like this. I believe you should always leave a bit of space, but some people believe once they've 'won' the corner they can drive for the apex. Probably no right or wrong as rules aren't in stone, just takes experience driving with different people.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 09:29:40 AM by Joe »

Offline Freezer

  • RestrictedRacing
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1296
  • Karma: 33
    • View Profile
Re: The driving standards thread
« Reply #74 on: September 28, 2020, 10:40:51 PM »
I always try to leave space. That way we both get to fight on.  Doesn't mean I make it easy for people to pass, I value race craft and positioning my car well.
That said, if you watch supercars, many will run someone onto the dirt once inside them!

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal