Xtreme Gaming Network
Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Australian Assetto Corsa League, Tuesday nights => Topic started by: Wally on May 30, 2015, 08:48:20 AM
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I've started a long and interesting discussion on the AC forums about how AC feels too slippery compared to real life, here: http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/ac-needs-more-grip-bear-with-me.24137/
To cut a long story short, when I did a track day in a race-prepped Commodore (slicks, race brakes, roll cage), the feeling was of massive grip. I don't get the same feeling in AC. The cars slip and slide way too easily, because you have none of the fear that prevents you from pushing the car way beyond its limits as you do in real life.
I just edited the surfaces.ini for Barbagallo to increase the friction, and took the BMW M3 E92 out. It didn't take much of a friction increase at all. I only had to increase the friction from 0.97 to 1.1 (about 10%), and the car felt much more like I experienced on the track, grip-wise. You could still feel the understeer and you could still slide the car a little bit, without it feeling too slippery. AC felt a lot more like actually being on track with a little fear in the back of your mind with that little tweak.
Anyway, to the proposal.
What do you guys think about trying a race (Nurburgring next Tuesday?) with everybody's surfaces.ini edited on their PCs to bump up the grip by 10%? If I do the same on the race server, there would be no checksum mismatches.
To me, that feels more like real life, and it may even reduce crashes.
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If we do we'll need to have RSR turned off as you'll get your account locked for modifying surfaces.ini file.
I think so anyway... :)
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We could create a copy of the track with the changed settings and call it "XGN Nurburgring"?
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Also, one question - what were your lap times? Faster or slower?
EDIT: Faster by at least 4 seconds at Nuburgring in P1 and same "feeling" just at higher limit.
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I'm ok with the idea, sounds like an interesting test.
We could create a copy of the track with the changed settings and call it "XGN Nurburgring"?
That's what we should do, I reckon. Then it's all good every which way.
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I'm ok with the idea, sounds like an interesting test.
We could create a copy of the track with the changed settings and call it "XGN Nurburgring"?
That's what we should do, I reckon. Then it's all good every which way.
Perfect :)
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I dont think it will change much other then make the cars unrealistically quick. I think if someone is sliding all over the place its simply because they are overdriving it. Im sure anyone here put in a p1 or lafa would be nowhere near the same commitment level if given a real one for 5 laps or so as they will be in their first laps in AC. If you really want the cars in AC to feel the same as your trackday experiance the you just need to back off more not raise the tyres limits even more IMHO.
Raising grip levels just will mean people get away more with overdriving but still the quicker guys will get much the same feel out of it just at higher speeds and faster laptimes.
Here is a very good driver driving some trackday cars. Ive also driven an r35 on track and can clearly say I was nowhere near his level of madness.
[youtube]YKMHKOEQAF4[/youtube]
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Here is a very good driver driving some trackday cars. Ive also driven an r35 on track and can clearly say I was nowhere near his level of madness.
Tiff Needell evo track battle: Nissan GT-R vs Por…: https://youtu.be/YKMHKOEQAF4
Watching Tiff drive the door's off a car is always most enjoyable :)
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We could create a copy of the track with the changed settings and call it "XGN Nurburgring"?
Yeah, that would be safest.
Also, one question - what were your lap times? Faster or slower?
I didn't do enough testing yet to really compare. But I have my P1 laptimes at Nurburgring at 100% grip as a baseline.
I dont think it will change much other then make the cars unrealistically quick. I think if someone is sliding all over the place its simply because they are overdriving it. Im sure anyone here put in a p1 or lafa would be nowhere near the same commitment level if given a real one for 5 laps or so as they will be in their first laps in AC. If you really want the cars in AC to feel the same as your trackday experiance the you just need to back off more not raise the tyres limits even more IMHO.
I think people slide too easily because there's no fear holding them back, so they drive unrealistically compared to how they drive in real life. This is all about making AC feel more like how you would drive on a track in real life.
Here's a key diagram I put together:
(http://i1329.photobucket.com/albums/w549/WallyMasterson/AC%20Fear%20Grip_zpslmc2qrdm.png)
The graph is the car's grip. As you push harder and harder, you eventually break the car's traction and slide. In real life, because of your fear, you can only drive up to the red line, and just start to make the car slide a little with a little traction loss. In a sim, you have no fear, so you can drive all the way up to the blue line, with it being all too easy to push the car way beyond its limits, losing all traction. It's not "realistic" compared to how you would actually drive at a track.
By raising the track grip just a little, it makes the driving experience closer to real life (closer to driving at the traction of the red line).
A little later, I'll set this up on the practice server, so we can give it a go.
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I dont see how moving the grip level makes any real difference or how it will improve driving standards. If people are crashing and sliding its because they are over driving. Having more grip will just make the quicker guys faster and so those a little off the pace will still likely over drive it to keep up. The end result will be much the same just at higher and less realistic speeds.
The reason they are normally off the pace is because they are over driving and not hitting the marks as well. Braking too late missing apexes wont be any different with more grip, the only thing that will change is that with more grip these guys may be a couple seconds quicker pushing at the same level.
The gaps to others quicker will likely be the same and in order to be quickest you will still need to be close to the cars limits. You can keep pushing the grip up or drop it down it really doesnt matter, on the limit the cars will alway be a little edgy. Its actually easier to regain control with less grip then more grip as the more grip you have, the more violent the point of regaining traction is. This makes it more likely to get a tank slapper.
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I didn't find the Alfa from Thursday night very realistic once up to speed, but that's not to say it isn't fun just seems to slip and slid around corners a little bit to easily.
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The Alfa is on vintage tyres though, and I have absolutely no idea what they were like. :o
All the footage I've seen shows cars slipping and sliding though.
(good ol' skool sideways stuff ;D)
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We could create a copy of the track with the changed settings and call it "XGN Nurburgring"?
Be careful doing this. I just tried it and even though it worked when I restarted AC it hangs on creating favourites. Not sure what is wrong yet.
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Marty, what would happen if for once, instead of arguing it to the hilt you'd just say; "let's try it once" ? :)
We could create a copy of the track with the changed settings and call it "XGN Nurburgring"?
Be careful doing this. I just tried it and even though it worked when I restarted AC it hangs on creating favourites. Not sure what is wrong yet.
Probably some naming/ID conflict.
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Marty, what would happen if for once, instead of arguing it to the hilt you'd just say; "let's try it once" ? :)
We could create a copy of the track with the changed settings and call it "XGN Nurburgring"?
Be careful doing this. I just tried it and even though it worked when I restarted AC it hangs on creating favourites. Not sure what is wrong yet.
Probably some naming/ID conflict.
It doesnt realy matter what my view is as its up to Wally what he wants to do. I dont think people need to get offended if someone expresses a different view. I didnt think you could only reply if you agree and if thats the case I will stay out of threads unless I am a yes man. ;)
Maybe we could run a round in Mario kart later too. ;D
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I like to hear everyone's opinion, for and against. That's the only way you refine your ideas.
Just to be clear, this change is not about less accidents... it's about making the game feel more realistic according to how you would actually drive on track in real life. We can try it, and if people don't like it, scrap it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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Yeah i think its just a case of not driving the car as hard in real life due to g forces etc, if you start driving the car with the same level of smoothness and technique as a real car you will find the car does have a life like way of behaving and you just need to really pay attention to the ffb. I dont think messing with the ac grip levels will be a good idea, im sure the developers at ac have spent a fair bit of time on this to get the behaviors of everything pretty close. One thing too note is apparently the ac tyre model isnt 100% the rate at which the car gains grip is linear to the load when in reality after a certain load the tyres start gaining a tiny amount of grip yet ac keeps increasing grip at this point, this is only on high speed turns, apparently the developers are looking into this and are making a new formula for it. So if anything we have slightly to much grip haha at high speed anyway.
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I have no doubt AC's grip is probably pretty close to real life mathematically. But in real life, because of fear holding you back, you don't drive up to the same grip threshold so easily. That makes AC feel less realistic than possible when it comes to available grip, I reckon. That's what I want to experiment with.
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Its a psychological thing though, im sure if you owned that commodore and you had a full days worth of driving it by the end of the day you would of found yourself with more confidence driving it a lot quicker and therefor feeling the car move around more.
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I'm happy to try more grip (although I'll never be able to compare it to a real LaFerrari, they haven't got an escape key!!)
I've been pretty happy with how AC handles loss of traction on the limits, as opposed to iracing!! but I don't mind experimenting.
Would like to see a graph of the 'Wally's post' to 'Flame On' ratio at the Assetto Corsa forum (or maybe Marty and his friend Arch..). ;D
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I'd rather not play with it.
Personally, I'd like to see less grip (like rain) before more.
Sooner or later we'd overdrive the extra grip anyway.
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Its a psychological thing though, im sure if you owned that commodore and you had a full days worth of driving it by the end of the day you would of found yourself with more confidence driving it a lot quicker and therefor feeling the car move around more.
That's true. I suppose the amount of extra grip would need to be proportional to your fear of driving the car. The Abarth 500, say, probably feels very realistic in terms of the grip you have at 100%. The P1 or LaFerrari would give you a lot more "code brown" moments in real life, and you'd drive it a lot more within its limits, simulated by a higher grip in the game.
By the way, I just did some laps at Nurburgring at 110% grip, and got a quick PB of 1:52.5, compared to my previous 1:57.0 at 100% grip. Being faster is not the point - it's what the grip would feel like if you actually drove the car on a track. I bet if you got into a P1 at a track, you'd be amazed at the grip and stopping power... not go sliding off into the wild blue yonder like it's so easy to do in AC.
The car is by no means on rails at 110% grip. You can still spin and drift. Just not quite so easily. There's still a ragged edge there... just a little further away. We will all still have a limit to find, and it's a level playing field.
I'm happy to try more grip (although I'll never be able to compare it to a real LaFerrari, they haven't got an escape key!!)
I've been pretty happy with how AC handles loss of traction on the limits, as opposed to iracing!! but I don't mind experimenting.
Would like to see a graph of the 'Wally's post' to 'Flame On' ratio at the Assetto Corsa forum (or maybe Marty and his friend Arch..). ;D
You need a thick skin when you propose anything controversial to sim racers :)
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...Sooner or later we'd overdrive the extra grip anyway.
You may be right. Let's try it and see. I'm in the process of uploading a modified track.
I guess what it does is that at some given corner, you might not be able to floor the throttle early without provoking oversteer at 100% grip. At the same point, at 110% grip, maybe you can. It moves the ragged edge of losing control just a little further away, just like a little fear of crashing does in real life.
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OK, practice server is up with all frictions increased by 10%, on a track called "XGN Nurburgring GP", which you can download HERE (https://www.dropbox.com/s/rtksojf2pfa9lf4/xgnnurburgring.zip?dl=0).
Download it like any mod track, and unzip it into your steamapps\common\assettocorsa\content\tracks folder.
It might be too late to get everyone onboard to try it out in next Tuesday's race. Maybe the next round.
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We could create a copy of the track with the changed settings and call it "XGN Nurburgring"?
Be careful doing this. I just tried it and even though it worked when I restarted AC it hangs on creating favourites. Not sure what is wrong yet.
Not a problem with the track changes at all!! I thought I would be clever and change two things at once ;D :-[ Turned out to the the Nissan 180SX mod causing the problem. Deleted it and all ok.
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I dont see how moving the grip level makes any real difference or how it will improve driving standards.
Its an issue of the 'feel' not driving standards. With the non existence of gforce under braking, cornering etc in a game, possibly some extra grip and therefore response out of the game might go some way to compensating and make it a more realistic feel.
EDIT: Just tried it and took 6 seconds off my time. Car felt good, not waiting for the front to find grip all the time...
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Personally, I'm against it, only for the fact that it will stuff up all my PB's and who knows what apps will pick up that you are driving with modified track grip.
All that will happen for me is that I will find the limit at 110% grip instead of 100%.
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Personally, I'm against it, only for the fact that it will stuff up all my PB's and who knows what apps will pick up that you are driving with modified track grip.
All that will happen for me is that I will find the limit at 110% grip instead of 100%.
It won't stuff anything up, because it's effectively a new track called "xgnnurburgring", a copy of the original track called "nuburgring". Just look at it as another mod track with its own set of PB's etc.
We'll all find the limit at 110%. That's what we do. But it will be a friendlier limit. Like I said before, there will be some corners where you used to not be able to go full throttle from the apex, but at 110% you can. The car will feel more planted, just how it would if you borrowed a P1 for a day and took it onto a track.
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It would be worth trying then for a bit of fun. . Perhaps not on a Tuesday night season race though... Although I'm hardly around for those anyway these days!
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What's the decision for this Tuesday? I'm still practising on the standard grip track. Should I change? I have found it takes a bit to adjust back to the lower grip track so would like to stick to one track version for this week - hard enough at the moment for me to come to "grips" with the racing in these after cars!
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What's the decision for this Tuesday? I'm still practising on the standard grip track. Should I change? I have found it takes a bit to adjust back to the lower grip track so would like to stick to one track version for this week - hard enough at the moment for me to come to "grips" with the racing in these after cars!
No, we won't try this this Tuesday. It's too late. I might get it ready for the following round at Imola.
So, to be clear:
Tuesday race at Nurburgring wil be at normal grip.
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I just did a few Nurb laps on 110% grip, and then went to do a few 100% grip laps (I did a 1:56.9 in the LaFerrari, #12/70 on RSR). I gotta say, 100% grip feels odd to me after 110. Sliding (controlled) everywhere, slippery... it doesn't feel as much like rubber on the road as it does at 110% grip. Maybe that's what driving a LaFerrari on the edge feels like. It's sure not what me driving a LaFerrari in real life would feel like.
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Exactely Wally you,me,and the rest of us here have zero idea how some racing or grand turismo sports car feel like in real life.Especially during a race,a tough one, i have zero idea and thats why i call this and other sims just a game.But i am ready to try whatever,let us know before the championship start of any change but..... :-[
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Another thing to cosider is these cars are still on road tyres albeit very good tyres but still they wont have that nice bite on the edge that a full slick would give.
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I think I understand your point about the feel and immersion and about making the game true to the way you perceive your own driving limits due to fear etc. However, I believe that this is relative to the individual and any changes made will reflect that person's experience. For example because you have had the good fortune of driving a race car on track, you have the perception of to little grip in AC because you were driving within a car's limits in real life. If you were even more fortunate to drive a car on track more often, your confidence may grow, therefore you will be going closer to the car's limits making AC more realistic (or closer to your reality) because your experience has broadened.
So what I'm saying is that if changes are being made they will likely reflect a person's experience. The only way, for me at least, to keep it 'real' is to have that 'mathematical' accuracy that AC currently provides. Your experience for example does not match mine (I haven't driven a race car on track) nor will it match the experience that Marty may have (I think he has often). I believe that this is what 'simcade' tries to emulate.
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All good points.
I always have the feeling in the back of my mind when playing AC: ”why are these cars so slippery? Surely they don't feel so slippery in real life.”
Let's just try it in the Imola round, and then see what people think. For me already at Nurburgring, it feels like more fun. You don't have to be quite so careful with the car, but it can still break away. But maybe that's me venturing into simcade laziness :)
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I think this vid gives a good indication of how a stock p1 behaves on the limit, fair bit of movement on the edge. In the end of the day as i said they still use road tyres and are road cars so they are never going to handle and grip as good as a gt3 car for example but for what they are they are damn good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DresnFqP1tM
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I think this vid gives a good indication of how a stock p1 behaves on the limit, fair bit of movement on the edge. In the end of the day as i said they still use road tyres and are road cars so they are never going to handle and grip as good as a gt3 car for example but for what they are they are damn good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DresnFqP1tM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DresnFqP1tM)
Gee, the AC sound is not too bad, compared to that vid, is it.
In the game, we're using Trofeo slicks though.
Hear what the driver said? "even when you do get excited, it's just really manageable... you'd think it might try to kill you every time, but it's just awesome - it's easy to drive." and that's (probably) not even on slicks. Does AC feel like that to you? It doesn't to me. MOAARRRR GRIP.... :)
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There is always Chris Harris who likes to push cars in his tests in a Laferrari
[youtube]GaAQW8lVaRM[/youtube]
And in the P1
[youtube]ufVQ-UKZbro[/youtube]
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I always have the feeling in the back of my mind when playing AC: ”why are these cars so slippery? ...”
That's because you haven't driven iRacing on the old tyre model :D
And I'm only half joking. It was a fucking ice racing, and that's what many people called it, too.
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Yeah, I've heard about ice-racing, but never experienced it.
The key point of my grip discussion is to make the game feel more like YOU being on track, not someone like Chris Harris. How the car would feel like for you, Mr. Joe Average.
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I never said this but i do not like the slippery situation in AC,it got worse that Iracing thats for sure,but lests try to edit the grip level then,i do not mind,actually i will do some tests myself.
how do i edit the friction on a track? steam>steamapps>common>assetto corsa>content>tracks>data>surfaces?
btw: i still play iracing everyweek so i can compare,of course different car different feeling but the trend is that,,,,slippery....massive understeer even at relatively slow speeds
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I think this vid gives a good indication of how a stock p1 behaves on the limit, fair bit of movement on the edge. In the end of the day as i said they still use road tyres and are road cars so they are never going to handle and grip as good as a gt3 car for example but for what they are they are damn good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DresnFqP1tM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DresnFqP1tM)
Gee, the AC sound is not too bad, compared to that vid, is it.
In the game, we're using Trofeo slicks though.
Hear what the driver said? "even when you do get excited, it's just really manageable... you'd think it might try to kill you every time, but it's just awesome - it's easy to drive." and that's (probably) not even on slicks. Does AC feel like that to you? It doesn't to me. MOAARRRR GRIP.... :)
Haha yeah i was going to point out the sounds too! really good job on those.
Nah the Trofeo is still a gooved tyre its just a semi slick, the car in that vid would have been on the stock pzeros (like the ferrari) so the trofeo is just a step above those. Which if you watch this comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiyyO7vrdiI you will see the difference at about 11.30 mins in lol.
I dunno each to there own really i find it manageable like he said especially for a 900hp car but that could just be my style of driving. Im curious to try 110% as i think it will simulate the car on full slicks which would be cool.
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I'm with Wally on how it feels. I took my WRX to a track day once and all I focused on was how hard I could push it, not when will the grip kick in. Also did a V8race experience and the grip blew the wrx away. I also expect that if I splashed out 500k on a Ferrari then it would have an incredible level of performance.
Then there is AC.. My theory is that they go and out and very accurately replicate the specs of a real car BUT in AC I am sitting in an office at a computer so many of the forces and feedback is not there. So it is likely that the game should not be so accurate in order to compensate for those missing effects and give a true experience.
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Yeah, that's it I reckon Freezer. AC probably models the maths really well, but not the experience. I've already written heaps on my reasoning; no need to repeat it.
Simone, you can edit all the frictions in the surfaces.ini, but take a backup of the file first. You'll need to put it back afterwards so you don't get checksum mismatches online. I increased the friction by 10% (multiply by 1.1). So 0.8 becomes 0.88, 0.97 becomes 1.07 etc.
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ok thx wally
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Im starting to think if you guys having issues in these cars could simply be the graining bug, high HP cars with cold tyres if you spin up the rears at all they will grain very badly. This will make it slide like crazy in the rear so probably best to try turn tyre warmers on and run some laps.
I drove the P1 for the first time at Nurburgring gp at regular grip and am amazed how much grip it has. Without actually putting a great lap together was fairly easily able to get into the 1:54's just ABS on but no TC. If anything Im fighting understeer in it and using DRS at a few apexes to get the rear a bit looser.
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I just jumped on the XGN practice server and see exactly that the graining bug is the entire issue wally is having. Very simple fix turn on tyre blankets no need for silly 110% grip levels, simply try it and you will see.
I didnt have the dev app on in the first run on the server and noticed my rears were shot even though I tried a no wheel spin slow start and very slow lap 1. Then I exited turned on the dev apps check the grain level and the slight burnout exiting pits before hitting the limiter has rear tyre grain level over 20. I assume that a race start will get well over 30 and so your rear tyres are done before you reach t1.
Turn on the tyre blankets and there will be no issue, rears will be fine and you will have plenty of grip all race. There is no warmup lap in AC so your starting a race on dead cold tyres and the way graining is implemented any excessive load through the tyres will cause graining, 1000hp off the line will kill rears just like it does in the 98T.
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My entire grip discussion is a general one, a feeling I've had for a long time over many cars, that just don't feel like they have massive grip. It's nothing to do with the P1 or Ferrari in particular.
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My entire grip discussion is a general one, a feeling I've had for a long time over many cars, that just don't feel like they have massive grip. It's nothing to do with the P1 or Ferrari in particular.
I think that AC has 'slip' programmed into their ffb as a way of assisting the driver to feel the limit of grip - hence the 'slip' parameter. It may mean that the driver feels the wheels slipping more than they really are. Perhaps what is needed is a negative 'slip' parameter.
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Graining effects every car its just a bigger issue with more powerful cars. The way graining works in AC is a pretty basic implementation there is a temp level that needs to be reached to stop graining build up. This is likely different for each type of tyre.
Using the p1 for example it seems the temp is around 60c. So any slip in the tyres under this will cause graining. I dont know if each value in graining would be equal to 1 percentage point less grip at that tyre but it is quite a lot less grip.
Now in a race scenario with no chance for a warm up lap and stone cold tyres. Any wheel spin, lock up or slide from front or rear will cause graining. In the p1 with no tc on in pits rears will grain to 13 with a regular start until the pit limiter. Then if you drive the outlap as you would a normal lap this figure will build on both ends before you get tyres to temp. its quite easy to have 10 front 20 rear by the end of the outlap.
This is very slippery and quite a few seconds are lost like this. Take a regular race start with normal amounts of wheel spin and agressive first few turns and tyres will be around 15 front and 30 rear and be sliding all over the place.
When I went off the line with no speed or wheel spin then took it very easy the first half a lap my grain levels were 2 front and 3.5 rear. This was still 1.5 seconds slower then no graining or very minimal of around 0.1 with blankets used.
So adding %10 more grip will make up for most of the damage caused by graining and give even more grip on top of this. I think if people use tc it likely wont be as big an issue at the rear but it will still grain driving a normal speed on cold tyres.
This happens with every car when tyres are cold its just more exaggerated with high hp cars. I think graining isnt that bad a thing and if allowed a warmup lap prior to race drivers could manage this. Still it clearly shouldnt be graining on cold tyre wheelspin as much seeing as spinning rears is a common tactic used by real drivers to heat the tyres prior to the race start.
If this was going to kill your set of tyres then nobody would be doing it. Seeing we dont have a warmup lap then tyre blankets should be used in all cars. Also with no blankets on out laps need to be so much slower theyd cause issues in traffic for qualy.
I dont see what the point of raising grip levels would be if the main issue is losing lots of grip due to graining. Tyre blankets on 100% fixes the grip loss through graining at the start of the stint. Still you can get graining if you let the tyre get too cold while on track but thats fine. They just shouldnt be murdered on the start grid or outlap as they are.
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I like your point about a warm up lap Marty. Tyre blankets can be seen as simulating a warm up lap (much like you could warm your tyres up in netKar before a race). It will lead to safer starts so yes, I will enable tyre blankets tonight.
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How do you turn dev apps on again?
I've forgotten. :-[
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The argument for more grip/less grip is kind of in line with my suggestion of a grip handicap as opposed to ballast.
I find the grip at 100% feels right but others may achieve similar levels of control and consistent management of sliding at less grip or more grip. I do think adding more grip would bring the field closer together though.
Is there an easy way to try more grip without being banned or having apps identify this?
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Copy a track, entire folder. Rename folder to xgnimola, for example. Rename kn5 file to xgnimola. Edit json.ui to call track XGN Imola. Edit surfaces.ini to increase all frictions by 10%. New track, new friction.
Its not meant to be a way to bring the field closer together
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How do you turn dev apps on again?
I've forgotten. :-[
In the assetto corsa main folder, under system I think its called assettocorsa.ini there is an option for dev apps which is now default at 0 needs to be 1 to enable them.
Is there an easy way to try more grip without being banned or having apps identify this?
The way youve been doing it so far seems undetected. ;D
But I think the only way would be Wally's method of seperate tracks and no server checksum. It would basically be a method that would require users to all run the correct setting as its not realy detectable by the server what each person is running. If the server is running ptracker then each persons track checksum would be visible but that would take so long to check each driver it would be painful.
It would just be an honesty system but many would likely make mistakes of having the wrong file or setting without knowing as it would be hard to even tell what your at until opening the files.
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I just put the same surfaces. Ini for xgnnurburgring on the practice server before, and the checksums still apply, so people will all be running the same track.
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I like your point about a warm up lap Marty. Tyre blankets can be seen as simulating a warm up lap (much like you could warm your tyres up in netKar before a race). It will lead to safer starts so yes, I will enable tyre blankets tonight.
Do we need to do anything re the blankets at our end...?
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Do we need to do anything re the blankets at our end...?
Yes, of course.
Find the pit crew, tell them that the blankets MUST be on before the race. :D
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I like your point about a warm up lap Marty. Tyre blankets can be seen as simulating a warm up lap (much like you could warm your tyres up in netKar before a race). It will lead to safer starts so yes, I will enable tyre blankets tonight.
Do we need to do anything re the blankets at our end...?
I don't think so. Or maybe. I enable it on the server, maybe you also have to tick it as an offline assist before you join the server.
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It should just be a server setting, your sp setting shouldnt have any effect. But this is AC so who knows, the way to make sure its working is check tyre temps when in pits.
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Yeah, I just turned my tyre blankets off in single player settings, and on the server my tyres are still 80 degrees straight away.
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Did guys yesterday really feel they were lacking grip? Sure it got a little slippery with the tyre wear but that was only because of the higher wear rate. At no point did I feel that this is way too slippery and I need more grip to give a realistic grip feeling.
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Nope, it was stuck to the tarmac like glued on. Except when I tried to brake in the usual places at the end of the straights...:D
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In the half a lap I managed last night it seemed very slippery to me ;)
Marty, seriously, I think Wally just wants to experiment with the change in grip to see how it feels in a race situation. I think the opinions on whether it is better/worse/different will be very subjective.
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It's not really a question of lacking grip, per se. It's to make it feel more like when you take a car on track in real life. If I hired a P1 and took it onto a track tomorrow afternoon, I wouldn't be "micro-drifting" in every corner, like I feel like I am in AC. That's great if you're simulating being a top-flight racing car driver, but I just want to see what it feels like if we're all out there as if we were having an XGN track day, hiring 12 P1's and 12 LaFerraris (who's paying?)
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You should try the p1 on the practice server it makes the car quite bad I think, regular grip its a fun car being able to balance the car through little slides around corners and it doesnt bottom out much at all as the suspension can handle the cornering loads much better. Now its got so much grip it is having issues with suspension and ride height where the lafa in comparison is now very basic to drive there. I think quite a few guys will have more issues driving the p1 with higher grip levels then they would have on regular grip, the lafa ends up feeling like a soft open wheeler with the amount of grip it has and easily rides the bumps and kerbs where the p1 ride height and stiffer suspension causes pretty big handling issues with the raised grip levels.
But I think still if you want to simulate driving slowly then its best to just drive slower ;) It doesnt change much with the higher grip it just makes the cars snappier on the limit as if they are now on soft slicks compare to a hard cut slick that they are meant to be running. Trying to make a hypercar on semi slicks feel the same as a much slower and heavier v8 on softer rubber I think is saying that Kunos dont know what they are doing. For me its easily the most natural feeling sim on the limit as is and the extra grip just makes it feel like the cars on a different tyre to what it should be.
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Interesting thoughts.... I didn't get the same feeling. It is only 10% more grip, so I didn't think it was that dramatically different in terms of handling characteristics. We'll see what people think after the Imola race.
As an aside, when I first tried upping the friction, I took the Alfa GTA out with 2x friction just as an experiment. Now that's a strange experience - the car doesn't slide at all, so you basically just tip over if you take a corner too fast.
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So whats the deal for the next race? Are we going to change the track surface? Can we leave it the way it is please?...ehhehehehe :-*
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So whats the deal for the next race? Are we going to change the track surface? Can we leave it the way it is please?...ehhehehehe :-*
Check out the Imola thread. There's a new 110% grip track to download it. We will try it for one round and see what people think.
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Bloody hell! SURE ::)
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Bloody hell! SURE ::)
No harm in trying things! You don't know until you try.
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Bloody hell! SURE ::)
No harm in trying things! You don't know until you try.
That's what I always say to jumpers on bridges...
:D
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You know what else would fix this issue of not enough grip?
Change the graphics to show sprinkles of water on the 'screen. ;)
8)
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You know what else would fix this issue of not enough grip?
Change the graphics to show sprinkles of water on the 'screen. ;)
8)
nah, just play under the shower... :D
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My Ferrari already has water droplets on the front bonnet. Is that why I'm slipping and sliding?
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Managed to do a dozen laps earlier with the extra grip. Felt like I was in an F1 car, just point and shoot.
I'd imagine the open wheelers would feel like you were in a space ship or something.
I think the field should be a little closer though as it seems a lot easier.
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Managed to do a dozen laps earlier with the extra grip. Felt like I was in an F1 car, just point and shoot.
I'd imagine the open wheelers would feel like you were in a space ship or something.
I think the field should be a little closer though as it seems a lot easier.
You're clearly not pushing hard enough ;)
This is the type of inexperienced track day feeling I'm trying to emulate. Even the V8 I drove felt point and shoot, pretty much.
It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
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I still can't control the arse on corner entry, seems like all the extra grip is going to the front only. :-[
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Do you plan on having a vote or something to see if the extra grip stays Wally, or is more of a trial just to see what it's like?
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Do you plan on having a vote or something to see if the extra grip stays Wally, or is more of a trial just to see what it's like?
That's the plan. It is a trial, to see what it's like, to actually try it. Then discuss it and put it to the vote. Rest assured, it's not a foregone conclusion by any means. It's just an experiment.
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I still can't control the arse on corner entry, seems like all the extra grip is going to the front only. :-[
It's just the surface friction that's been increased, so it must surely be all round. It may need some setup tweaks to balance the car.
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I still can't control the arse on corner entry, seems like all the extra grip is going to the front only. :-[
It's just the surface friction that's been increased, so it must surely be all round. It may need some setup tweaks to balance the car.
It could affect it, for example:
(arbitrary figures)
Normally I get 100% grip front, 90% rear, a 10% difference;
With the increase I get 110% front, 99% rear, an 11% difference;
The more grip, the better the braking, the more weight transfer, the lighter the rear.
Maybe this is wrong but it feels 10% worse.
Either way, the car always felt planted apex-off (which is what you said you were after), it's corner entry I'm struggling with.
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I still can't control the arse on corner entry, seems like all the extra grip is going to the front only. :-[
It's just the surface friction that's been increased, so it must surely be all round. It may need some setup tweaks to balance the car.
It could affect it, for example:
(arbitrary figures)
Normally I get 100% grip front, 90% rear, a 10% difference;
With the increase I get 110% front, 99% rear, an 11% difference;
The more grip, the better the braking, the more weight transfer, the lighter the rear.
Maybe this is wrong but it feels 10% worse.
Either way, the car always felt planted apex-off (which is what you said you were after), it's corner entry I'm struggling with.
I don't think that's right. You have 100% of the available grip at the front, 90% at the rear. If the overall grip goes up, you'll still have 100% of the available grip at the front and 90% of the rear. You should get more grip front and back, still in the same ratio (100:90).
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You're probably right Wally.
But this whole discussion is about feel and it feels worse with the extra grip.
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You're probably right Wally.
But this whole discussion is about feel and it feels worse with the extra grip.
Hold that thought :)
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The extra grip will generate more load then intended even if its only 10% more here then under braking more weight will shift forward and also in cornering. Sure if you drive it the same as if it was 100% grip then it will just feel more planted and things wont change much. But if you use the extra grip and still push to the limits of grip especially in cars with not much setup options like the p1 you may find its quicker but quite a bit worse to drive. Push the p1 at imola with the extra grip and it bottoms out in a few spots as the suspension struggles to deal with the extra loads.
I think kunos have a fair idea about physics and grip and the main reason its my prefered sim is because of this. Messing with grip levels above what should be possible for any reason just seems odd to me. The cars are as expected about 3 or 4 seconds a lap quicker with the extra grip and no longer resemble close to the real world cars they are trying to simulate.
They still slide on the limit but just handle as if having an extremely soft and sticky slick tyre rather then the durable semi slicks they are meant to run. With the extra grip the cars are also more prone to getting a tank slapper as it regains grip more violently.
The best way to simulate driving further from the limit is to simply drive more under the limit, not add grip which still doesnt make much sense to me. I think doing a 1:38 at 100% grip is not much different to doing 1:34 at 110% grip. Sure doing 1:38 pace with 110% grip will be more planted but that would still be the same as doing 1:42 at 100% grip. Your only moving the limit and unless there are next going to be speed limits in the race people will always drive as close to the limit as they can. This can be any grip level but going beyond 100% causes other issues in some cars as they are operating beyond their intended loads.