[Wally]

Guybrush posted a really good idea as a ballast alternative on the AC forum. Instead of adding weight to faster drivers, give them a lower track grip. The cars would handle better, and not be so disadvantaged with loss of straight line speed. I can't see that ever being implemented though.

But.

The server already sends the current track grip level to all clients. I wonder if it would be possible to intercept those packets, on the server, and alter the grip level for individual drivers before sending the packet on to the client. In theory, that would be possible, I guess. It might be time to crack out WireShark and sniff the packets coming out of the server and see if they can be interpreted.

[Bird]

heh, bloody hackers...
The idea is good, tho.

I'd so like to see what happens if you run on an 80% track with an 80% tyre....you need to also output some ice texture in this case I guess

p.s. I'd be happy to be involved.  Maybe you need help sorting the package format out...
It can be a biatch, all you hunting for is a number.  We don't even know if it arrives with every package!
Unless they've been nice enough to use some non-predefined format, mayhap xml or json (however unlikely)


Um...isn't there a way to mess with these values - or the tyre grip - from python apps?   That would be a slight bit simpler, and would not add latency (which the package manipulation can introduce)

[marty]

I think its worth trying until Ballast is added officially, but as I wrote in the thread the end result would be near identical to ballast. Guy thinks that less grip will mean it just slows you in corners but straight line speed is all about exit speed. If you have less grip you will be slower out of the corner and so slower down the straight just the same as with ballast I think.

Ballast does make you lose some power on acceleration but for the reduced grip level needed to level things out I think the top speed differential would be quite similar. You can already try to see the difference of either option just put in fuel with no fuel burn fill the tank and run some laps, compare the difference between a full and empty tank. Next try and set grip level to a point where with an empty tank you are at the same lap times as with a full tank, then compare telemetry of both and see if there is any noticeable difference in how the lap is achieved being handicapped purely by weight or grip. 

[Wally]

Good idea Marty. Do you want to try that at a pretty "average" track (straights vs. corners) like Imola, and capture your telemetry.nkt files?

[marty]

Yes can do, any car you think it would be best to do it in? I think running a gt car at Imola with medium tyres no wear and fuel off should be easiest to get good data. Just set a hotlap on low fuel then do the max fuel run, followed by reducing grip level on low fuel until it matches the same time. If I can put in a good lap in each at pretty much the same time within a tenth or two the data should show this fairly well.

Wally have you got a link to a proper working Motec or Aim setup for AC, I did dl Aim a while back but couldn't quite get it to work for some reason.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Good idea Marty. Do you want to try that at a pretty "average" track (straights vs. corners) like Imola, and capture your telemetry.nkt files?

When I get a chance I might try it at Mugello.  I find Imola is a little unreliable as a lot of the lap time is derived from riding the curbs in a particular way.

[Wally]

I *think* I've just downloaded the latest version of AIM Race Studio. Have you used it before? What problem are you having?

[marty]

I did run a few laps in the m3 GT2 no fuel use tyre wear on soft tyres. I turned on tyre wear because it just felt strange with wear off for some reason and running softs they are close to 100% from lap 2 to lap 4 here so it gives me a few laps.

Fuel weight surprisingly wasn't as big an impact as I expected with soft tyre and 1l of fuel with 100% grip level I got 1:42.3, 110l I got 1:43.4 (I think) then reduced grip levels to a fixed 97% which was probably a fraction slippery and got 1:43.5.

The difference with the added weight felt fairly minor and I likely could have gone a couple tenths quicker. The 97% grip it took quite a while for tyres to get to temp and it was quite a bit slower into a few corners. Braking was the main issue trying to fight locking up as I used no ABS or TC. But mid corner speeds with lower grip were clearly slower as I needed to drop down an extra gear in some spots. Also much harder out of corners due to lack of traction and even though I think id need a little more grip to match the 110l of fuel handicap id have more hope racing with the weight then the reduced grip I feel.

Overall there were no perfect laps in there but all fairly even amount of push, with maybe only a few tenths to gain in each. The main thing I noticed is this car would need a lot of weight for handicapping if you wanted to knock it down 4 seconds per lap. At that point it would likely feel pretty bad but grip wise it wont need as much though at the lower levels it still is much harder to drive then a heavy car most likely.

I havent checked the data but will attach it here for Wally to take a look and bring up some stats.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/sa7snffswwd3nkl/M3+GT2+weight+v+grip+handicap+test.rar

I will get the latest AIM studio but last time I tried it I couldnt find any way of importing the telem data, I had never used the software so also had no idea what I was doing. 

[Bacchulum]

How would it effect dynamic track grip levels, though?
I like the way we have the track rubber in (even though I'd prefer if we started in the 8-% range to make it more extreme).

[marty]

I don't think we need to start grip at 80% but maybe reduce the speed it grips up at, once there are 24 cars going around it doesn't take long to get to 100%. But when grip is very low its pretty pointless to even run practice laps at a level we wont be racing at. If the grip stay low even during qualy and maybe only gets closer to 100% at the end of the last lap of the long race it would be close to ideal. 97% costs me more then one second so 95% is probably nearly 2 seconds and quite slippery, I think the devs said somewhere 80% would be like light rain on slicks.

Combining individual grip levels and dynamic session grips I think just adds too many variables, the odds of making it fair for most is unlikely I think.

I tried installing Aim studio but the install crashes when it tries to install some USB driver, I tried a second time and pressed dont install on this driver but it just crashed the system again. I dont think it works in win 8.1x64 so I will leave the data analysis up to you.

[Bacchulum]

I think the devs said somewhere 80% would be like light rain on slicks.

I guess you don't like wet weather as much as I do Marty.
It would be the closest we can get to simulating a drying track.

[marty]

I dont mind it at times but if it starts wet in practice and I know its not going to be during qualy or race I wouldn't bother running laps in that prior to race nite. 

Managed to install race studio forcing win 7 compatibility mode on the installer, will see if I can get the data to come up.

[Bacchulum]

I just don't like 100% grip.
In the real world a track is never at 100%.

[Wally]

The ballast we used to end up running in netKar was quite significant for the front runners, to even up the field. It was much, much heavier than a full tank of fuel. I know what you're saying about exit speed Marty, but with significant ballast, you lose straight line speed even say from a standing start, no corner exit speed to be considered. I am fairly convinced, after having driven heavily ballasted cars, that a less grippy track would feel much better.

[marty]

Looking at the data it kind of shows there isnt much in either way but the effect of a full tank isnt much and so for a 4 second difference youd need nearly 4 times the weight or much lower track grip. Either way it wont feel great as your taking quite a chunk out of the cars performance.

A track that is 4 seconds slower is very slippery and your braking distance is going to be way ahead of someone with much more grip, corner exits you will also struggle to get traction. So either way its not going to be any better with less grip rather then less weight.

Guys main concern is not being able to pass others but losing so much mid corner and under braking and acceleration with less grip wont make that any easier.

I also think its just making it a bit silly if every driver is basically on another track with individual grip levels per driver. Weight is commonly used in real racing but giving everyone less grippy tyres is getting a bit too arcade I am starting to think.