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Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Australian Assetto Corsa League, Tuesday nights => Topic started by: Wally on March 12, 2019, 11:31:29 PM

Title: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 12, 2019, 11:31:29 PM
Congratulations to Freezer on his first pole of the season, and to Joe for all 3 race wins and the overall round win, which sees him take the lead in the championship standings.

RACE 1 RESULTS (https://xgnassettocorsa.blogspot.com/2019/03/s27r3-sports-cars-at-modena-race-1.html)
RACE 2 RESULTS (https://xgnassettocorsa.blogspot.com/2019/03/s27r3-sports-cars-at-modena-race-2.html)
RACE 3 RESULTS (https://xgnassettocorsa.blogspot.com/2019/03/s27r3-sports-cars-at-modena-race-3.html)
SEASON STANDINGS (https://xgnassettocorsa.blogspot.com/2019/03/season-27-standings.html)
SEASON STATS (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nu52lWM6_TIRBEGCTF32BxLe8mobfsCFpd_wOeuxpXI/edit?usp=sharing)

Round Points
Joe   77
Freezer   68
Mael   56
AbleArcher83   51
ab156   46
Dave O   46
buellersdayoff   46
killagorilla   45
Wally   42
bradc   39
Phil.8   37
JamieP   36
Bird   34
RussG   33
Rob   24
Bacchulum   17

Lap 1 Penalties
This round kept the race stewards busy!

Race 1
Turn 1 – Joe drifted a little wide and tagged the front right corner of Bird, sending him slightly to the left. Bird was slowly turning the corner, when ab156 re-entered the track from running a bit wide on the left to the side of Bird, and Bird just tagged the right rear corner of ab156, turning him around and causing a chain reaction. It was a fairly slow sequence of events and I can’t really put definitive blame on anyone, so I’m calling that a racing incident.

Race 2
The front row had 2 Abarths on it, and the second row had two Nissans on it. The Nissans both took off faster than the Abarths, and both decided to pass on the middle, colliding with each other. Killagorilla was a little further back then Bueller, and should have seen him occupying the gap first and backed off - $300 penalty.

RussG drove into the back of Killagorilla in T1 and spun him - $300 penalty.

Rob missed the apex and drove into the side of Killagorilla spinning him - $300 penalty.

Race 3
Ab156 ran into the rear left of Bird mid-corner and spun him - $300 penalty.

Phil hit the rear right of Bird in the final turn, spinning him - $300 penalty.

Season Standings
1. Joe, 143
2. Wally, 140
3. Phil.8, 137



The next round is at Modena (fast layout), a tighter, twistier track.Track: https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/autodromo-di-modena.5346 (https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/autodromo-di-modena.5346) (note there has been a version 3.2 released; a lot of us probably still have version 3.1).

19 lap races.


The weather will be 11, 15 and 16 degrees.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Mael on March 13, 2019, 11:32:59 PM
ok I'll start the conjecture on how any passing would occur on this go-cart track. Dive-bomb into T1?  :P
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on March 13, 2019, 11:53:34 PM
ok I'll start the conjecture on how any passing would occur on this go-cart track. Dive-bomb into T1?  :P
I'll kick it off with one word . . . Abarth!
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 14, 2019, 07:43:50 AM
ok I'll start the conjecture on how any passing would occur on this go-cart track. Dive-bomb into T1?  :P
We raced here before in the Japanese cars, and if I remember correctly, the final turn was a happy hunting ground.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 17, 2019, 08:46:57 AM
ok I'll start the conjecture on how any passing would occur on this go-cart track. Dive-bomb into T1?  :P
I'll kick it off with one word . . . Abarth!
That's going to be the car to beat around here. The Nissan is 1.5 secs behind the Abarth here.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Ablearcher83 on March 17, 2019, 04:48:58 PM
NO paddles :D
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 17, 2019, 05:11:42 PM
NO paddles :D
105 laps? ? ? ?  :o :o :o :o
You must be dizzy now.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 18, 2019, 12:41:36 PM
Don't forget to rent a car before tomorrow night. There are still a lot of Nissans in the entrant list, and I can't believe that nearly everyone wants to drive one :)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: bradc on March 18, 2019, 09:55:50 PM
..... There are still a lot of Nissans in the entrant list, and I can't believe that nearly everyone wants to drive one :)

After trying my other two options (Mustang & BMW) I’ve got to stick with what I know even though I’m many seconds slower than a Fiat....
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 18, 2019, 10:19:50 PM
..... There are still a lot of Nissans in the entrant list, and I can't believe that nearly everyone wants to drive one :)

After trying my other two options (Mustang & BMW) I’ve got to stick with what I know even though I’m many seconds slower than a Fiat....
The Beemer's doing OK(ish) here, in Mael's hands. But yes, I tried the BMW too and it feels very different to the Nissan. Much more sensitive steering, I find.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Joe on March 18, 2019, 10:47:59 PM
Well I guess my round 1 mishaps helped as I can just afford the Fiat.. mwhahahahaha
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 18, 2019, 11:04:26 PM
Well I guess my round 1 mishaps helped as I can just afford the Fiat.. mwhahahahaha
Make hay while the sun shines!
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Mael on March 19, 2019, 12:26:32 PM
Welcome to the BMW brotherhood Phil  ;D I expect nothing less than a win from you!
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Joe on March 19, 2019, 01:56:29 PM
Welcome to the BMW brotherhood Phil  ;D I expect nothing less than a win from you!

Last night he said he'd just stick with the Mustang as it would make no difference to his end result  ;D
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 19, 2019, 03:36:48 PM
Welcome to the BMW brotherhood Phil  ;D I expect nothing less than a win from you!

Last night he said he'd just stick with the Mustang as it would make no difference to his end result  ;D
I'll laugh if there's one Mustang up the front with a whole line of cars queued up behind it, unable to pass.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 19, 2019, 06:14:48 PM
Server's up.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Bird on March 19, 2019, 10:15:56 PM
Well, it was good fun but I got a bit tired by the end.

I don't know who turned me around in the last race, but blaming me for it I feel is a bit rich; I was in the corner, I was ahead, I cannot see you; you need to take care. 
Anyway,  no big deal.

Hope you guys had good races, too, although there were a lot of accidents.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Phil.8 on March 19, 2019, 10:26:31 PM
I think I turned you around at one point Bird, but I take full blame for that

Sorry for everyone I hit tonight, Never really got to like the BMW and was caught out a few times
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: buellersdayoff on March 19, 2019, 10:49:29 PM
Fun nights racing, thanks guys... Sorry for the incident at the start of race two, I moved over to get up the inside of one of the Mr. Bean cars but moved too far and there was no room, my rear end rubbed someone and I turned around...sorry if it ruined anyone's race
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on March 19, 2019, 10:58:38 PM
Tough nights racing.  Qualified in P1 which was a rarity.
Race 1 I got tagged by Killa I think which half spun me into Joe but we got going only dropping a few spots.  From there Joe and i battled
our way back to the lead and whilst I could hang on to the back of him I couldn't get close enough to pass.
Race 2 and 3 were more of me chasing Joe who seemed to get a bit quicker each race but it was still close.
Happy with three seconds .  . . although I was secretly hoping for three firsts tonight. :)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Joe on March 19, 2019, 11:09:21 PM
Good night for me. First few laps of race 1 were intense trying to find a way past Wally and also trying to hold freezer off. Think freezer got by then I was able to thread my way past them both in the last turn. I then caught up with killa and bueller and got my them then held freezer off till the end.

Race 2 and  3 were very similar getting away well and holding freezer off but was good pressure and I had to concentrate hard not to make a mistake.

Were you running any rear wing freezer? It seemed you were a bit quicker in the corners but I pulled away a bit on the straights.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on March 19, 2019, 11:16:34 PM
Were you running any rear wing freezer? It seemed you were a bit quicker in the corners but I pulled away a bit on the straights.
Just default wing (whatever that was).  I was trying to get on the gas early out of the turns though!
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 19, 2019, 11:32:56 PM
Results are up in the first post. Congratulations to Joe on the round win.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Joe on March 19, 2019, 11:33:01 PM
Were you running any rear wing freezer? It seemed you were a bit quicker in the corners but I pulled away a bit on the straights.
Just default wing (whatever that was).  I was trying to get on the gas early out of the turns though!

Default was 1 I was on 0. I was just making sure I placed it on the apex and focused on exits. Was definitely faster in the last race.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 20, 2019, 07:47:36 AM
That was a tough round. I got banged into from behind mid-corner more often than I would have liked. Maybe I had slow mid-corner speed, but I was turned around quite a few times. The Nissan was feeling very understeery in the last few laps of each race. I managed to get side by side with a few of the Abarths from time to time, but it was ultimately futile as they could just power around the corner. I didn't think I put a pass on anyone all night, apart from the starts. One of the race starts looks very impressive, with a bunch of Nissans all weaving around the slower Abarths and streaming past.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: ab156 on March 20, 2019, 08:15:55 AM
The best and worst of sim racing.  I respectfully disagree with the judgements but won't dwell on it.

I obviously need to go and reconsider my starts, sorry to all I impacted in T1, R1.

Thanks to DaveO for some great racing in every race, side by side, position swapping and no contact.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 20, 2019, 08:33:40 AM
And congratulations to Mael - the only driver who didn't rack up a damage fee  8)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: rob on March 20, 2019, 10:05:08 AM
Rob missed the apex and drove into the side of Killagorilla spinning him - $300 penalty.

Sorry Killa, I miss judged the corner and missed the apex, and couldn't hold a tight enough line. Apologies mate.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Bird on March 20, 2019, 10:17:32 AM
Just one question, Wally, do I get the penalty money as consolation prize for R3 or the institution pockets it?  :)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 20, 2019, 10:40:30 AM
Just one question, Wally, do I get the penalty money as consolation prize for R3 or the institution pockets it?  :)
Interesting suggestion. But I don't want to introduce a financial incentive to cause incidents ;)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Joe on March 20, 2019, 11:12:22 AM
And congratulations to Mael - the only driver who didn't rack up a damage fee  8)

Is that because he was nowhere near anyone else? At the back maybe?
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Bird on March 20, 2019, 01:00:22 PM
And congratulations to Mael - the only driver who didn't rack up a damage fee  8)

Is that because he was nowhere near anyone else? At the back maybe?

Definitely not, I was chasing him a lot.
He's just a lucky bugger, huh? ;)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: killagorilla on March 20, 2019, 01:49:43 PM
Rob missed the apex and drove into the side of Killagorilla spinning him - $300 penalty.

Sorry Killa, I miss judged the corner and missed the apex, and couldn't hold a tight enough line. Apologies mate.

That's ok Rob...shit happens. Lap one was ruined anyway...and I made it to the very end of the field again ;-)
Bueller, that was me at the start of race 2. There is blame on my side as well. I was hoping the both of us make it through the middle there. I had a better start than you, knew I either gotta start slow (which get's me in trouble with the boys behind me) or just try to pass this little Fiat in front of me. I tried to stay as close as possible to the right, but it's easy to misjudge...so you get a sorry anyway.
So race two was just bad result-wise, but fun to drive if you forget about points and the standings.
Had a good start in race 3, but couldn't manage keeping a couple of the Abarth's behind me.
So there was contact with Freezer and Dave O which were similar. It seemed you guys were just able to go different lines through turns. Sorry to turn you around, but I don't really see myself at fault, as there was enough space for you at the outside and I just couldn't do these turns as you did (based on my judgement at the time of contact...however, I can be wrong...didn't watch the replay).
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Mael on March 20, 2019, 04:02:32 PM
And congratulations to Mael - the only driver who didn't rack up a damage fee  8)

Lol I am going to have that comment framed.  ;D

A lot of it was due to the people I was racing, could have taken AB out but he was aware enough to do an undercut when I misjudged my braking distance. Ablearcher also made two very good overtakes while the Bird did not land on me  ;D

PS I assume Joe would only be able to afford a pushbike for the next race after those wins?
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Mael on March 20, 2019, 04:05:43 PM
Geez at this race I'm never going to be able to afford that M1  :'(  Only made $100 from the previous race.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: RussG on March 20, 2019, 04:43:55 PM
I just got banged around all night. Thought I was in a demolition derby. Got knocked back early every race, made up places with a number of tough clean passes only to get knocked out again.
Very frustrating, but I had plenty of action to keep me busy.

Personally not a fan of the Rent a Car system, but happy if others like it.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 20, 2019, 04:45:40 PM
Geez at this race I'm never going to be able to afford that M1  :'(  Only made $100 from the previous race.
Coming 5th in the championship, you don't need the M1!

FYI, the Alfa 4C is in reach of some now.

Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: bradc on March 20, 2019, 06:02:55 PM
Interesting night. I didn’t like this track when I first tried it and my opinion hasn’t changed but then neither has my inability to know how to set up a car..... The very cold temperatures really suited me as driving fast on cold tyres seem to be my strength. This meant I was fairly competitive for the greater part of the journey, my race 1 start was brilliant as I maned to move from last to 5th weaving my way around the spinning chaos of the first couple of corners until Phil passed me and I then drove a daily consistent race.

Race 2 being a little warmer, I expiremented by increasing the tyre pressures and I found myself in a duel with Wally for several laps. I noticed I could outbreak him at turn 1 using a different racing line, so I had a crack after following for a couple of laps and stuffed up. Sadly there was contact and being the passing car I have to put my hand up and wear the contact as my mistake. Wally I fully understand your frustration and sadly a couple of mid field battle pack also bashed him around whilst he was trying to recover so I think were we both 2nd to dead last by the time Wally recovered and we got motoring again. Later in the race I was turned around by killer at the 3rd last corner and then finished several seconds behind him.

Race 3 with the weather heating up I tried increasing the tyre pressures again, however this didn’t seem to make much difference. In the early stages on cold tyres I was able to keep pace moving from 14th to 9th in the opening 3 laps and then things didn’t really progress. I spent a lot of the time going side by side with Wally (again) but with the previous races events hanging in my mind I was ultra conservative in attempting any pass and was never able to make one. I was able to close under brakes but only close enough to either punt him or do a bump and run, which isn’t my style. Later in the race bulller caught up to me and whilst I tried to put up a fight I really didn’t have much to hold him off.

As others have commented, this rent a racer series at times seems to have brought out the best and worst in some. Whilst I can understand people’s frustration in following lap after lap and then eventually bumping their way past, I can’t also forget to mention that there is not much of a financial penalty for making such contact. I know Wally does his best, and I don’t mean this comment as a Wally bashing expertise, but perhaps there needs to be a greater level of scrutiny over people’s actions across the entire race and not just the opening lap......
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Bird on March 20, 2019, 06:30:41 PM
Brad, I think you can still report any incident (mostly where you think you came out second best) to Wally, and he'll be the judge of it - but don't expect him to watch all races from everyone's perspective every time.

The contacts I think are due to most of us not used to mixed car racing too much.   Early on in GTL we had plenty of these, until everyone has learned how to cope with very different cars.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: ab156 on March 20, 2019, 06:50:54 PM
Brad, I think you can still report any incident (mostly where you think you came out second best) to Wally, and he'll be the judge of it - but don't expect him to watch all races from everyone's perspective every time.

The contacts I think are due to most of us not used to mixed car racing too much.   Early on in GTL we had plenty of these, until everyone has learned how to cope with very different cars.

I think we are all a bit above that, these things become tedious and eventually collapse once formal protests and reviews are put in place.  The pack will take care of itself  8)

The one thing I would remind people of is the general gentleman's expectation that if you take someone out you will redress.  My moto "if in doubt, redress".
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Bird on March 20, 2019, 07:15:32 PM
Brad, I think you can still report any incident (mostly where you think you came out second best) to Wally, and he'll be the judge of it - but don't expect him to watch all races from everyone's perspective every time.

The contacts I think are due to most of us not used to mixed car racing too much.   Early on in GTL we had plenty of these, until everyone has learned how to cope with very different cars.

I think we are all a bit above that, these things become tedious and eventually collapse once formal protests and reviews are put in place.  The pack will take care of itself  8)


I personally don't like it to be self-managed; it's always better to have an impartial judge of such things, IMO.   But of course it's not mandatory to report anything.
Actually, Wally may no longer prefer this system anyway. :)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 20, 2019, 07:37:29 PM
We've been round this many times... it's far too time consuming to judge every incident. My preference is that people are mature enough to realise that they stuffed up and try to learn from the mistake and try to improve their driving next time, for the increased enjoyment of everyone.

This was a tight track (the tightest and slowest of the season - average speed was only 105 kph), with 16 mixed cars on it. There's always going to be some bump and grind in this situation.

As AB said, a little redress goes a long way. But I emphasise to only do this when it's safe, without causing further mishaps by unexpected slow downs. Talking on Discord also makes your intentions clear.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Dave O on March 20, 2019, 08:09:55 PM
Judging by all the post race comments here I think most of us had some great door to door racing during
this round.  ;D I had my ups & downs in all 3 races, but gee I enjoyed it  ;D best racing I've had for a while  ;D
At no stage did I feel I was just hotlapping. Don't have name tags in vr so can't easily tell who you're racing
but had some great battles. I think the secret here is to respect the person your racing and give each other room.
Had a ball in race 3 trying to round up the Nissans  :) Had a great battle with Wally last 4 laps of race 3 his only
real defence was to take my lines and keep me at bay which he did, well done Wally. I think this round showed
what Wally is trying to achieve with this format very well.  ;) Cheers all. Dave O.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on March 20, 2019, 09:09:40 PM
Just wanted to throw something out there!  Having acquired the Abarth last night I thought I owned it, however
is see today that I am back to the three bottom cars as a result of achieving damage etc.
Would it be beneficial to keep your car? 
Keep a better car and earn less cash, or only choose to buy a modest car earning more cash with the aim of
holding back your cash for later in the season!  Bit of strategy!
Thoughts...
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: RussG on March 20, 2019, 09:51:37 PM
I respectfully disagree with the judgements but won't dwell on it.
I must agree with ab about R1. It's very clear.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: killagorilla on March 20, 2019, 10:17:13 PM
Race 2 ... Later in the race I was turned around by killer at the 3rd last corner and then finished several seconds behind him.
Hmm...I was on the inside next to you the turn before which changed to the outside at the entry of the turn you're talking about. It's a left hand turn and I was on the kerb with my right wheels (and I didn't move left towards you). You had a better exit from the turn before and then went onto my line. Again, I couldn't go any further to the right.
It seems to me you should have stayed further left on the inside to avoid contact...sorry, but it seemed to be self-inflicted.
It unsettled your car a little bit, but, having watched the replay, I don't understand what you mean by "turned around".
Of course you wanted to take the best line for you. The problem was just that I was there and the line you wanted to take wasn't available.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 20, 2019, 10:44:40 PM
Just wanted to throw something out there!  Having acquired the Abarth last night I thought I owned it, however
is see today that I am back to the three bottom cars as a result of achieving damage etc.
Would it be beneficial to keep your car? 
Keep a better car and earn less cash, or only choose to buy a modest car earning more cash with the aim of
holding back your cash for later in the season!  Bit of strategy!
Thoughts...
That's what the entry fee is designed to do - make you slowly drift back down the car list (especially if you do well in it), so you can't just "fluke" a faster car after having a shocking round, and then get to keep that car forever. In the Porsche trial, people tended to go up and up the car list. This way, the people up the pointy end will slowly change.

As for the strategy, you can already decide to go with a cheaper car and maybe sacrifice some points to earn more cash for later rounds, especially if there's a future round coming up that might suit a faster car. For example, the people that drove an Abarth at Modena could have chosen to buy a cheaper car and not do so well, and then have the money for the Alfa 4C at the much faster Thruxton.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 20, 2019, 10:46:35 PM
I respectfully disagree with the judgements but won't dwell on it.
I must agree with ab about R1. It's very clear.
How do you know which judgements AB is disagreeing with? Who do you think is clearly at fault in R1, and why?
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: RussG on March 20, 2019, 11:13:26 PM
I respectfully disagree with the judgements but won't dwell on it.
I must agree with ab about R1. It's very clear.
How do you know which judgements AB is disagreeing with? Who do you think is clearly at fault in R1, and why?
Would you like a PM or to post here on the forum?
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 21, 2019, 09:08:41 AM
I respectfully disagree with the judgements but won't dwell on it.
I must agree with ab about R1. It's very clear.
How do you know which judgements AB is disagreeing with? Who do you think is clearly at fault in R1, and why?
Would you like a PM or to post here on the forum?
Well, let's discuss it here. These judgement calls have to reflect "community standards". If most people think it should have attracted a penalty, then I'm happy to change my standards.

Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: RussG on March 21, 2019, 11:48:09 AM
Well, let's discuss it here. These judgement calls have to reflect "community standards". If most people think it should have attracted a penalty, then I'm happy to change my standards.
Sure ...

Race 1
Turn 1 – Joe drifted a little wide and tagged the front right corner of Bird, sending him slightly to the left. Bird was slowly turning the corner, when ab156 re-entered the track from running a bit wide on the left to the side of Bird, and Bird just tagged the right rear corner of ab156, turning him around and causing a chain reaction. It was a fairly slow sequence of events and I can’t really put definitive blame on anyone, so I’m calling that a racing incident.
So, heres how I see it from the replay ..
Joe went straight ahead at T1 causing a light impact with Bird (this has nothing to do with what happens next).
Bird is now turning the corner. ab156 did not run wide, he was passing Bird around the outside.
ab156 did not re-enter the track, in fact he was in front of Bird, but Bird kept moving left. ab156 actually moved even further left (off track) and that's when the impact happened. At no time did ab156 move towards the centre of the track.
ab156 was well in front of Bird and was easily visible from the cockpit camera position. Bird had the opportunity to avoid the incident by backing off a little, but kept his foot on the gas right up until contact was made. No attempt was made to redress. ab156 and several other drivers were severely disadvantaged by the incident.

IMHO - very clear. Bird carelessly drove into the side of ab156 and caused the carnage.
Bird: please don't look at this as a witch hunt or anything. It's just how the replay shows it. We all cause incidents at times.

Race 1 replay available here if anyone wants it.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/f75pzczuvvzz42p/AC_190319-202446_R_ks_nissan_skyline_r34_modena31_fast_layout.7z/file (https://www.mediafire.com/file/f75pzczuvvzz42p/AC_190319-202446_R_ks_nissan_skyline_r34_modena31_fast_layout.7z/file)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 21, 2019, 12:07:35 PM
Thanks for the write up Russ. I'll take another look at the replay when I get a chance.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Bird on March 21, 2019, 07:41:32 PM
No problem Russ, if I'm at fault I'm happy to cop a penalty, but I do not feel I am (or was). (To clarify this statement: I don't feel anyone was; it was a racing accident IMO)
I've checked my replay - mostly from my viewpoint, - and it matches what I recall - ab's car suddenly appearing from the outside, I'm at full lock (full turning ability) exiting the corner and he gets caught on my front.

so firsty; he was full-4-tyres outside of the track (outside the white lines)
I was at full turning ability, I did not "drive straight" -I was simply trying to exit the corner.
And lastly; he really surprised me by appearing here, check the replay from my viewpoint, it happens rather quickly. Maybe the replay is different from mine, I'll upload my replay to be sure.

I also did not expect that bump, and really did not expect him to get turned around by it when it happened!   By the time I could do anything it was over.  Maybe I'm getting old, and I'm sorry if this was an easily avoidable accident, but believe me, at no point I wanted him to crash, that is never my intention, unless I'm playing destruction derby ;) 

(But I also seldom slow down to allow someone an easy overtake, unless I'm lapped!)

Also: I'm really sorry for it, AB and all the others who got caught in it, I hope I can avoid such situations in the future.


Edit: here's my replay.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5jkfvr18q1rzy3h/AC_190319-212434_R_ks_nissan_skyline_r34_modena31_fast_layout.zip?dl=0
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on March 21, 2019, 09:59:04 PM
No problem Russ, if I'm at fault I'm happy to cop a penalty, but I do not feel I am (or was). (To clarify this statement: I don't feel anyone was; it was a racing accident IMO)
I've checked my replay - mostly from my viewpoint, - and it matches what I recall - ab's car suddenly appearing from the outside, I'm at full lock (full turning ability) exiting the corner and he gets caught on my front.

so firsty; he was full-4-tyres outside of the track (outside the white lines)
I was at full turning ability, I did not "drive straight" -I was simply trying to exit the corner.
And lastly; he really surprised me by appearing here, check the replay from my viewpoint, it happens rather quickly. Maybe the replay is different from mine, I'll upload my replay to be sure.

I also did not expect that bump, and really did not expect him to get turned around by it when it happened!   By the time I could do anything it was over.  Maybe I'm getting old, and I'm sorry if this was an easily avoidable accident, but believe me, at no point I wanted him to crash, that is never my intention, unless I'm playing destruction derby ;) 

(But I also seldom slow down to allow someone an easy overtake, unless I'm lapped!)

Also: I'm really sorry for it, AB and all the others who got caught in it, I hope I can avoid such situations in the future.


Edit: here's my replay.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5jkfvr18q1rzy3h/AC_190319-212434_R_ks_nissan_skyline_r34_modena31_fast_layout.zip?dl=0

End of the day it was such a small touch that caused a shed load of drama . . !!  :) :)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 21, 2019, 10:26:18 PM
A couple of videos (best to watch fullscreen):

Bird's-eye view (Bird is a black Nissan, left of track):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtnTOIkcKkw
Bird's view:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqc_gu8lG0k

In my opinion, it's a racing incident. Like Bird said, he was at full lock, just trying to negotiate the corner after being tapped offline by Joe, and taken by surprise by AB appearing from the left. Was Bird a tiny bit at fault? Probably. Was he driving recklessly enough to cop a penalty? I don't think so.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: RussG on March 21, 2019, 10:54:05 PM

OK, now this is getting silly.

[rant]
So now you have to be driving recklessly to get a penalty? In that case I don't deserve any of the penalties I have been given in the past.
Bird at full lock? Your own replay shows that Bird releases the lock before the contact. Your replay doesn't show the fact that he also stayed on the power right up until contact as well.

Wally, sometimes I can't figure out how you hand out penalties - flip a coin - roll a dice? I've been penalised when someone else actually runs into me. I've been run off track and no penalty for the other person - racing incident apparently.
If this doesn't deserve a penalty, then I am completely lost. It's been stated many times that if you run someone off track on lap one and make them lose places you will be penalised.

If I was in Birds position I would EXPECT a penalty and would have no argument against it.

I was penalised in race 2 for bumping the back of killagorilla and turning him - I redressed. Was I driving recklessly - no. killa had arrived in the turn and actually ran into the car in front of him which propped him a bit and made my bump into him worse.

Honestly, I have never been banged around as much as I was in this set of races. There are people who deserve multiple penalties but I realise the entire races can't be reviewed. Personally, I drove a really clean night (except for one tap). I made numerous on track passes and every one was clean with zero contact. Every time I made places, someone would run into me and send me back a number of places - in all 3 races.

Anyway, apparently I don't know anything. In the last few weeks I've learnt that turning into someone who is fully up the inside in a turn and taking them out is a racing incident. Now I also know that running into someone who has passed you around the outside and taking them out is also a racing incident.
[/rant]
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 22, 2019, 08:31:02 AM
As I've said many times, and everyone should know this by now:It's simple and clear, consistently applied over many hundreds of incidents, acknowledging that often a degree of judgement needs to be applied.

As for your penalty, you dive-bombed at speed down the inside of turn 1 into a group of slow moving cars and hit and spun Killa - a clear penalty of the "hitting someone from the rear" kind.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 22, 2019, 09:00:28 AM
And please, I'd like to hear other opinions too. As I said earlier, it's about community standards. I'd like to hear what the community thinks. It's not about taking sides, or blaming the driver, it's about the situation. Should it be a penalty?
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on March 22, 2019, 09:20:14 AM
And please, I'd like to hear other opinions too. As I said earlier, it's about community standards. I'd like to hear what the community thinks. It's not about taking sides, or blaming the driver, it's about the situation. Should it be a penalty?
Some points:  Bird was holding full lock right up until the contact but I note when he starts to straighten up the corner was over and they were powering onto the straight.
AB was off the track although visible to Bird
There were no dramatic moves or silly stuff it was just the smallest of taps.  For me its a racing incident that if the spinning car had not gone on to create more drama then
it likely wouldn't have attracted much interest.  Penalty based on the rules?  Not really, plenty of others have had the benefit of leniency in these awkward moments!
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Dave O on March 22, 2019, 09:22:22 AM
Watched both videos 3 times.... Have to go along with Wally on this one (Racing Incident) imho.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Joe on March 22, 2019, 01:55:13 PM
Looks like a racing incident to me. Was a pretty crazy start with all the cars at different speeds. I had my eye on helicorsa as I was getting swamped and that's why I didn't go for the apex and left a cars width on the inside also knowing there was room on the outside. Looking at the overhead I could have taken the apex but not being 100% sure I left room.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: killagorilla on March 22, 2019, 04:37:45 PM
Must be really hard racing with just one screen.
However, I think it's important to have a set of basic rules (like Wally) and apply them when judging an incident. Otherwise chances are good you get lost in details and it can be too hard to weigh up different aspects.
I guess I deserved my penalties so far ;)
Russ running into me at the first turn in race 2 is maybe not a bad example. I was surprised by how slow the Abarth right in front of me went into the right-hand turn and got really close and probably touched him slightly. Because of that I slowed down even more and you can maybe say that this caught then Russ by surprise...and he messed up my hopes for a good finish...again.
So, how can we expect Wally to judge something like that? How often is he supposed to watch a replay to finally come to a decision? In my opinion it's the best to just say, if you run into someone on lap one and you shoot him off you get a penalty. Everyone knows it and that's the only thing you can do to get people not to try too hard to win the race on lap one.
This incident between Bird and AB is a bit difficult to judge considering Bird's limited FOV. Looks a bit like he could have left AB a bit of space there, but if he was on the limit there's not much you can do. I guess it shouldn't have happened with triples...but that doesn't help, I know.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: ab156 on March 22, 2019, 05:16:30 PM
And please, I'd like to hear other opinions too. As I said earlier, it's about community standards. I'd like to hear what the community thinks. It's not about taking sides, or blaming the driver, it's about the situation. Should it be a penalty?

AB should have been awarded a free lap and won the race, started on pole for race 2 which he would have dominated with same result for race 3.  It's pretty simple.
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: ab156 on March 22, 2019, 05:48:50 PM
I'll be serious for as long I can bother, we are debating a virtual race from several days ago  :P

Clearly I am not independent and have a biased view, I am not complaining, just laying out my view.

Firstly, I admit to be influenced by the first race at Paul Ricard where the exact same thing happened to me.  T1, on the outside line as I try to claim a car width of tarmac I got a tap in the right rear ruining my (and many others) race. Don't bother with replays, trust me.

For this race, I dispute I was coming back onto track, the opposite in fact.  I was always on track and only just went 4 wheels out of the white line (still on track) when I saw Bird understeering - by then it was too late.  Another 1/4 car length and have been clear and had the apex for T2. I think we were all unprepared for the starting difference of the cars, as soon as I realised this and to avoid any issues I took the widest line available, I also knew there would be a big braking difference so ensured a clean lane ahead.  So I don't think I hold any blame.

From Birds perspective there was a lot going on and I have no doubt he never expected me to be where I was. The microraces view (love it) shows me coming back at him from probably 10 car lengths back, plus he was a bit busy with the 3 cars inside of him so there is clearly no malice but I was in front and did get contact so it comes down to the application of the rules.  Please, I don't want a penalty applied but that is my view.  Regardless of how "busy" it is we are expected to have control of our car and be aware of others, that is why we run the radar and spotter.

I'll be taking the "cross three lanes and arrow into T1" approach next race.  I might get lucky but at least I won't be the one taken out.  Joking... maybe.

Ironically, that is not the one I was frustrated at. The penalty I got in race 3 is what annoyed me (sorry for outburst, money has been put in the swear jar).  After getting beaten up all race 1 and 2 the "rules of the road" seem to have shifted.  Unfortunately it was Bird and I again. Bird used the Nismo power down the back straight to pass me, I braked deeper and held the inside line for the next corner with a small overlap from my cockpit (I agree it looks worse from exterior view).  As I braked and turned into the apex with wheels on the curb the door was shut and I made rear contact.  His rear hit me sir! I get the penalty which is technically correct based on criteria.  Now, I know Bird didn't do it on purpose (stated on Discord) and it ruined his race also but I felt I was already "there" and if R1 contact is a racing incident then this was also.  Again, I am not looking for the penalty to be lifted, it makes no difference as I will be away for a few races.

Finally, I have no issue with Bird - we just seemed to be in the middle of it this race which at the end of the day is why I show up - for competition.  Sometimes you are the bug, sometime the windscreen.  Call me Buggy McBug.

How is that for not dwelling on it  ::)
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Bacchulum on March 22, 2019, 07:10:48 PM
I've been in Bird's and AB's position and had penalty and no penalty, and I argued vehemently.
But looking at this with no objective persuasion, I say racing incident (there was no rear end contact). :-X
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Phil.8 on March 22, 2019, 07:22:33 PM
I have not looked at the replay because I never do, and there is no point with so many variables with real people from all over the country racing together anything can and does happen. We all make mistakes and I am sure none of us mean to cause grief to others,  it just happens sometimes.
 I also better grab a couple of these penalties before there is none left for running into Wally and Russg, 
Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Bird on March 22, 2019, 07:55:54 PM
I like your stance, AB, and I think we should put it to bed.

I am sorry for both incidents, we both got something bad out of it - you somewhat worse, admittedly - and I really hope lady luck will grant us a quarter car-length next time.

If you are around the central coast, jump in for a beer anyday.  Then we'll sit down and laugh at us crazy buggers arguing over online racing to the hilt; how does that sound? ;)

Title: Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
Post by: Wally on March 23, 2019, 04:15:13 PM
Thanks for the input guys.