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ballast

Author Topic: ballast  (Read 1956 times)

Offline grat

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ballast
« on: February 21, 2017, 09:28:39 PM »
Guys,

you all know how much I love Wally and appreciate how hard it is to run the league. I care about saying this: I really appreciate it.

I think the ballast system has failed us too many times. It's nobody's fault. Simply with the update this time it was not calibrated. So while in Tor Poznan Joe and Diehard could at least stay close to the top, here it was >2seconds per lap for me and kcencer and diehard. It hink the car was simply way too different from usual... very hard to drive. I know kcender and diehard managed to avoid the carnage at the start, and if I did too, I could have stayed with them. But after 6 laps or so, they were running like 15 seconds from Phil. That cannot be what we wanted to achieve.

So I am asking a honest question to all: who is benefiting from the ballast? I am not kidding. I am really not sure about who is enjoying the races better because of it. If there are, then I am happy to keep going with it. But otherwise, why do we do it? It is pretty clear several of us really do not like it.

Please just discuss. I mean to harm to anybody. Just thought it is a good moment (between seasons) to have this kind of chats.

Offline UnFknBLievable

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Re: ballast
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2017, 11:44:36 PM »
is it a possibility that too much weight was applied? For the Praga, it's already a very sensitive car..

Ballast system works. I've copped some heavy ballast penalties and while it sucks, it can bring the racing a bit closer. The trouble is knowing how much weight is fair and the time it takes to configure it correctly.

I don't think any form of compulsory pit-stop or race-start delay is a better option.

Offline Shameless_1

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Re: ballast
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2017, 11:45:45 PM »
I feel that the ballast on the praga has a greater effect than it would say on a porsche gt3 car for instance.. But there is no other current system available that can both penalise a driver and slow the winners down to give others a chance. I think the ballast system is necessary, but perhaps its a matter of testing the season car(s) prior to see how ballast affects them and how much is needed.  I don't think ballast is effective in a sprint race than it would be in an enduro.

--- A quitter never races and a Racer never quits. ---

Offline grat

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Re: ballast
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2017, 12:12:31 AM »
Only to clarify: we are only talking of success ballast, not "crash" ballast. The second, while of course we should try to keep it commensurate to the procured damage, it's fair: I do a mistake, I get a bad racing night. :)

Offline marty

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Re: ballast
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2017, 12:54:40 AM »
I dont know how much ballast was given but if used lightly it can work fairly well. For example if the max ballast is about .5 or .75 per lap, once you start going to toeing a caravan type ballast it makes it into a bit of a joke. A slight disadvantage for winning the last race O think is ok to keep the same people from easily winning all races but they shouldnt then be so far off the pace that it means they have no hope of a podium finish amongst those with no ballast that may have been a second or more per lap slower.

Online Wally

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Re: ballast
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2017, 07:10:05 AM »
To answer your question Grat, no one who gets ballast ever likes it (unless they're sick of hotlapping in front of the pack). It benefits those without ballast who have more of a chance of getting towards the pointy end of the field, so we don't see the usual suspects on the podium without anyone else really having much of a chance to get there. It also means that you can get to race against people you'd never see otherwise e.g. I actually was close to Deathwish and Kcender87 last night.


I did test 45kg of ballast at some stage, and found that it took less than a second off my lap time at some particular track. Look at Kcender87 last night. With 45 kg, he still finished 2nd and 5th. Your and Diehard's lap times were very competitive, right in the mix, and remained competitive to the end. I think sometimes the ballast changes your mind more than the car ;)


As you know, we don't use ballast all the time. I only used success ballast here because the real life series used a success handicap (in the form of pit hold).
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline Gratulin

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Re: ballast
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2017, 08:49:13 AM »
I think one big difference with ballast in a sim versus in real life is that in the sim we are applying the ballast to the driver whereas in real life the ballast is applied to the car. Typically, in a real life series a car is quicker because the car has a BOP advantage which the ballast corrects.

As someone who rarely, if ever, gets ballast applied I still dislike it in any form. Drivers who have ballast drive differently and more desperately and are basically mobile hazards. They are typically faster drivers who resent being 'back in the pack' and will do anything to improve their position. They brake at different points, slide through corners erratically, bitch and moan on TS etc etc.

I say let the fast guys get bored out front if they wish. If they are bored then perhaps they can slow down a bit

Offline diehard

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Re: ballast
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2017, 09:04:19 AM »
The Ballast made it extremely hard to drive this week at mugello, as seen by the 2 seconds per lap difference, it seemed to be exacerbated in low grip levels. I think anything over 30kg was too excessive it changed the handling of the car too much.

The Pit lane delay used at the start of the season was much better, its a shame it was not working consistently for some people.

Offline grat

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Re: ballast
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 09:14:07 AM »
They are typically faster drivers who resent being 'back in the pack' and will do anything to improve their position. They brake at different points, slide through corners erratically, bitch and moan on TS etc etc.
Ahahah! I am probably guilty. Sorry :( But it's not resentment for being back in the pack, at least not in my case. I would not mind at all a season with two types of cars and Wally chooses who drives the slower ones. That could be fun. The problem is different for me:

My main scope in a season is to learn to feel comfortable with the car. Once I am comfortable, it gets incredibly enjoyable. I can choose to be more or less risky/attacking. I know when I can try to pass and when I should not try to defend. I know I can get close to my opponent and enjoy it. With too much ballast, the car is so different that I lose all that. And it gets less enjoyable.

Online Wally

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Re: ballast
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2017, 09:39:35 AM »
I think one big difference with ballast in a sim versus in real life is that in the sim we are applying the ballast to the driver whereas in real life the ballast is applied to the car. Typically, in a real life series a car is quicker because the car has a BOP advantage which the ballast corrects.
Some series like the BTCC also apply a success ballast to individual drivers.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Offline Gratulin

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Re: ballast
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2017, 10:38:18 AM »
I think one big difference with ballast in a sim versus in real life is that in the sim we are applying the ballast to the driver whereas in real life the ballast is applied to the car. Typically, in a real life series a car is quicker because the car has a BOP advantage which the ballast corrects.
Some series like the BTCC also apply a success ballast to individual drivers.
I hadn't realised that. Is it drivers in exact same cars?

Online Wally

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Re: ballast
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2017, 12:14:10 PM »
I think one big difference with ballast in a sim versus in real life is that in the sim we are applying the ballast to the driver whereas in real life the ballast is applied to the car. Typically, in a real life series a car is quicker because the car has a BOP advantage which the ballast corrects.
Some series like the BTCC also apply a success ballast to individual drivers.
I hadn't realised that. Is it drivers in exact same cars?
No, they drive a huge variety of cars, around about the 2l mark, I believe. It's an entertaining series, one of my faves. FWD's, RWD's...
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Online Freezer

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Re: ballast
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2017, 09:15:05 PM »
With too much ballast, the car is so different that I lose all that. And it gets less enjoyable.
Personally I have never felt ballast did much more than slow my lap times.  You might have to adjust your driving style a bit or make some setup changes but that's about it.  Like any car you just have to work with what you have got and give it a "red hot go" as a certain famous driver used to say!

Online Bacchulum

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Re: ballast
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2017, 12:00:21 AM »
The trick is to keep the suspension frequency consistant.
The more weight, the stiffer the springs need to be. ;)