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S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat

Author Topic: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat  (Read 3271 times)

Offline killagorilla

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2019, 10:17:13 PM »
Race 2 ... Later in the race I was turned around by killer at the 3rd last corner and then finished several seconds behind him.
Hmm...I was on the inside next to you the turn before which changed to the outside at the entry of the turn you're talking about. It's a left hand turn and I was on the kerb with my right wheels (and I didn't move left towards you). You had a better exit from the turn before and then went onto my line. Again, I couldn't go any further to the right.
It seems to me you should have stayed further left on the inside to avoid contact...sorry, but it seemed to be self-inflicted.
It unsettled your car a little bit, but, having watched the replay, I don't understand what you mean by "turned around".
Of course you wanted to take the best line for you. The problem was just that I was there and the line you wanted to take wasn't available.

Online Wally

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2019, 10:44:40 PM »
Just wanted to throw something out there!  Having acquired the Abarth last night I thought I owned it, however
is see today that I am back to the three bottom cars as a result of achieving damage etc.
Would it be beneficial to keep your car? 
Keep a better car and earn less cash, or only choose to buy a modest car earning more cash with the aim of
holding back your cash for later in the season!  Bit of strategy!
Thoughts...
That's what the entry fee is designed to do - make you slowly drift back down the car list (especially if you do well in it), so you can't just "fluke" a faster car after having a shocking round, and then get to keep that car forever. In the Porsche trial, people tended to go up and up the car list. This way, the people up the pointy end will slowly change.

As for the strategy, you can already decide to go with a cheaper car and maybe sacrifice some points to earn more cash for later rounds, especially if there's a future round coming up that might suit a faster car. For example, the people that drove an Abarth at Modena could have chosen to buy a cheaper car and not do so well, and then have the money for the Alfa 4C at the much faster Thruxton.
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Online Wally

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2019, 10:46:35 PM »
I respectfully disagree with the judgements but won't dwell on it.
I must agree with ab about R1. It's very clear.
How do you know which judgements AB is disagreeing with? Who do you think is clearly at fault in R1, and why?
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Online RussG

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2019, 11:13:26 PM »
I respectfully disagree with the judgements but won't dwell on it.
I must agree with ab about R1. It's very clear.
How do you know which judgements AB is disagreeing with? Who do you think is clearly at fault in R1, and why?
Would you like a PM or to post here on the forum?
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Online Wally

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2019, 09:08:41 AM »
I respectfully disagree with the judgements but won't dwell on it.
I must agree with ab about R1. It's very clear.
How do you know which judgements AB is disagreeing with? Who do you think is clearly at fault in R1, and why?
Would you like a PM or to post here on the forum?
Well, let's discuss it here. These judgement calls have to reflect "community standards". If most people think it should have attracted a penalty, then I'm happy to change my standards.

“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Online RussG

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2019, 11:48:09 AM »
Well, let's discuss it here. These judgement calls have to reflect "community standards". If most people think it should have attracted a penalty, then I'm happy to change my standards.
Sure ...

Race 1
Turn 1 – Joe drifted a little wide and tagged the front right corner of Bird, sending him slightly to the left. Bird was slowly turning the corner, when ab156 re-entered the track from running a bit wide on the left to the side of Bird, and Bird just tagged the right rear corner of ab156, turning him around and causing a chain reaction. It was a fairly slow sequence of events and I can’t really put definitive blame on anyone, so I’m calling that a racing incident.
So, heres how I see it from the replay ..
Joe went straight ahead at T1 causing a light impact with Bird (this has nothing to do with what happens next).
Bird is now turning the corner. ab156 did not run wide, he was passing Bird around the outside.
ab156 did not re-enter the track, in fact he was in front of Bird, but Bird kept moving left. ab156 actually moved even further left (off track) and that's when the impact happened. At no time did ab156 move towards the centre of the track.
ab156 was well in front of Bird and was easily visible from the cockpit camera position. Bird had the opportunity to avoid the incident by backing off a little, but kept his foot on the gas right up until contact was made. No attempt was made to redress. ab156 and several other drivers were severely disadvantaged by the incident.

IMHO - very clear. Bird carelessly drove into the side of ab156 and caused the carnage.
Bird: please don't look at this as a witch hunt or anything. It's just how the replay shows it. We all cause incidents at times.

Race 1 replay available here if anyone wants it.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/f75pzczuvvzz42p/AC_190319-202446_R_ks_nissan_skyline_r34_modena31_fast_layout.7z/file
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Online Wally

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2019, 12:07:35 PM »
Thanks for the write up Russ. I'll take another look at the replay when I get a chance.
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Online Bird

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2019, 07:41:32 PM »
No problem Russ, if I'm at fault I'm happy to cop a penalty, but I do not feel I am (or was). (To clarify this statement: I don't feel anyone was; it was a racing accident IMO)
I've checked my replay - mostly from my viewpoint, - and it matches what I recall - ab's car suddenly appearing from the outside, I'm at full lock (full turning ability) exiting the corner and he gets caught on my front.

so firsty; he was full-4-tyres outside of the track (outside the white lines)
I was at full turning ability, I did not "drive straight" -I was simply trying to exit the corner.
And lastly; he really surprised me by appearing here, check the replay from my viewpoint, it happens rather quickly. Maybe the replay is different from mine, I'll upload my replay to be sure.

I also did not expect that bump, and really did not expect him to get turned around by it when it happened!   By the time I could do anything it was over.  Maybe I'm getting old, and I'm sorry if this was an easily avoidable accident, but believe me, at no point I wanted him to crash, that is never my intention, unless I'm playing destruction derby ;) 

(But I also seldom slow down to allow someone an easy overtake, unless I'm lapped!)

Also: I'm really sorry for it, AB and all the others who got caught in it, I hope I can avoid such situations in the future.


Edit: here's my replay.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5jkfvr18q1rzy3h/AC_190319-212434_R_ks_nissan_skyline_r34_modena31_fast_layout.zip?dl=0
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 07:50:13 PM by Bird »

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2019, 09:59:04 PM »
No problem Russ, if I'm at fault I'm happy to cop a penalty, but I do not feel I am (or was). (To clarify this statement: I don't feel anyone was; it was a racing accident IMO)
I've checked my replay - mostly from my viewpoint, - and it matches what I recall - ab's car suddenly appearing from the outside, I'm at full lock (full turning ability) exiting the corner and he gets caught on my front.

so firsty; he was full-4-tyres outside of the track (outside the white lines)
I was at full turning ability, I did not "drive straight" -I was simply trying to exit the corner.
And lastly; he really surprised me by appearing here, check the replay from my viewpoint, it happens rather quickly. Maybe the replay is different from mine, I'll upload my replay to be sure.

I also did not expect that bump, and really did not expect him to get turned around by it when it happened!   By the time I could do anything it was over.  Maybe I'm getting old, and I'm sorry if this was an easily avoidable accident, but believe me, at no point I wanted him to crash, that is never my intention, unless I'm playing destruction derby ;) 

(But I also seldom slow down to allow someone an easy overtake, unless I'm lapped!)

Also: I'm really sorry for it, AB and all the others who got caught in it, I hope I can avoid such situations in the future.


Edit: here's my replay.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5jkfvr18q1rzy3h/AC_190319-212434_R_ks_nissan_skyline_r34_modena31_fast_layout.zip?dl=0

End of the day it was such a small touch that caused a shed load of drama . . !!  :) :)

Online Wally

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2019, 10:26:18 PM »
A couple of videos (best to watch fullscreen):

Bird's-eye view (Bird is a black Nissan, left of track):

<iframe width="640" height="385" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WtnTOIkcKkw?fs=1&start=" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Bird's view:
<iframe width="640" height="385" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Sqc_gu8lG0k?fs=1&start=" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

In my opinion, it's a racing incident. Like Bird said, he was at full lock, just trying to negotiate the corner after being tapped offline by Joe, and taken by surprise by AB appearing from the left. Was Bird a tiny bit at fault? Probably. Was he driving recklessly enough to cop a penalty? I don't think so.
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Online RussG

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2019, 10:54:05 PM »

OK, now this is getting silly.

[rant]
So now you have to be driving recklessly to get a penalty? In that case I don't deserve any of the penalties I have been given in the past.
Bird at full lock? Your own replay shows that Bird releases the lock before the contact. Your replay doesn't show the fact that he also stayed on the power right up until contact as well.

Wally, sometimes I can't figure out how you hand out penalties - flip a coin - roll a dice? I've been penalised when someone else actually runs into me. I've been run off track and no penalty for the other person - racing incident apparently.
If this doesn't deserve a penalty, then I am completely lost. It's been stated many times that if you run someone off track on lap one and make them lose places you will be penalised.

If I was in Birds position I would EXPECT a penalty and would have no argument against it.

I was penalised in race 2 for bumping the back of killagorilla and turning him - I redressed. Was I driving recklessly - no. killa had arrived in the turn and actually ran into the car in front of him which propped him a bit and made my bump into him worse.

Honestly, I have never been banged around as much as I was in this set of races. There are people who deserve multiple penalties but I realise the entire races can't be reviewed. Personally, I drove a really clean night (except for one tap). I made numerous on track passes and every one was clean with zero contact. Every time I made places, someone would run into me and send me back a number of places - in all 3 races.

Anyway, apparently I don't know anything. In the last few weeks I've learnt that turning into someone who is fully up the inside in a turn and taking them out is a racing incident. Now I also know that running into someone who has passed you around the outside and taking them out is also a racing incident.
[/rant]
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Online Wally

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #56 on: March 22, 2019, 08:31:02 AM »
As I've said many times, and everyone should know this by now:
  • Hitting someone from the rear, when the following car has visibility of the car in front, will nearly always attract a penalty.
  • Dramatic moves from one side of the track to the other in the first two turns and hitting someone beside you will nearly always attract a penalty.
  • Unsafe track re-entry, out of impatience or frustration will nearly always attract a penalty. Track re-entry where you're out of control, or sliding on grass etc, will not.
  • I am lenient on side-to-side impacts due to the poor side visibility in sim racing.
It's simple and clear, consistently applied over many hundreds of incidents, acknowledging that often a degree of judgement needs to be applied.

As for your penalty, you dive-bombed at speed down the inside of turn 1 into a group of slow moving cars and hit and spun Killa - a clear penalty of the "hitting someone from the rear" kind.
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Online Wally

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #57 on: March 22, 2019, 09:00:28 AM »
And please, I'd like to hear other opinions too. As I said earlier, it's about community standards. I'd like to hear what the community thinks. It's not about taking sides, or blaming the driver, it's about the situation. Should it be a penalty?
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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2019, 09:20:14 AM »
And please, I'd like to hear other opinions too. As I said earlier, it's about community standards. I'd like to hear what the community thinks. It's not about taking sides, or blaming the driver, it's about the situation. Should it be a penalty?
Some points:  Bird was holding full lock right up until the contact but I note when he starts to straighten up the corner was over and they were powering onto the straight.
AB was off the track although visible to Bird
There were no dramatic moves or silly stuff it was just the smallest of taps.  For me its a racing incident that if the spinning car had not gone on to create more drama then
it likely wouldn't have attracted much interest.  Penalty based on the rules?  Not really, plenty of others have had the benefit of leniency in these awkward moments!

Offline Dave O

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Re: S27R3: Modena (Fast) Race Chat
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2019, 09:22:22 AM »
Watched both videos 3 times.... Have to go along with Wally on this one (Racing Incident) imho.
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