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Season 28 - tiers and restrictor

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Online Wally

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Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« on: April 19, 2019, 05:24:29 PM »
I've changed my mind... I'm just going to keep it simple, with no restrictor or ballast.

I'm going to try a 3 tier restrictor system in the upcoming season. After every round, drivers will be divided into 3 tiers by their fastest lap times. Drivers in the top tier will have more restrictor, the middle tier less, and the bottom tier 0. The goal is to compress the field a bit and give closer racing.


As an example, the top tier might have 50% restrictor, the middle tier 25% and the bottom tier 0 (I have to determine the real numbers after more testing). Everyone starts with 25% restrictor. As you go up or down the tiers, your restrictor can go up or down by 25%, but you won't get more than 50%.


For example, after round 1, the top tier will all be on 50%, the middle tier all on 25%, and the bottom tier all on 0.
Then, after round 2, lets say someone who had 0 restrictor ends up in the top tier - their restrictor will go up by 25 to be 25%.
If you had 50% restrictor but still finished in the top tier, your restrictor will stay at 50%.
 If you had 50% restrictor and ended up in a lower tier, your restrictor will go down by 25. And so on.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 12:07:37 PM by Wally »
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Online killagorilla

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2019, 08:18:57 PM »
It will compress the field, but I doubt it would get us closer racing and has good potential to be unfair for the guys which are generally at the bottom end of a tier.
The difference in performance between the last one in tier one and the fastest in tier 2 will most likely be significantly overcompensated by a 25% restrictor instead of closing a gap.
In the end we are all racing the guys, which are close to us in performance. It can be frustrating if your standing in the series doesn't reflect performance and gets too much messed around with. Again this won't affect Matthew, kcender or Phil...they will be doing their thing at the top end of the field. I doubt guys in lower tiers will be able to get close to them.
Let's say in a field of 24 the guy on 8 is 0.2s faster than the guy on 9 based on his natural speed with no or the same restrictor. In a race the guy on 9 the round before will perform better just because of a 25% lower restrictor. So the guy on 8 will battle with the guy on 10 or 11 the next round. This will repeat itself and guys at the interfaces will swap positions during the series. So in short, I think 3 tiers are not enough...and seem to be a random manipulation which distorts the outcome of a series around the edges of tier1/2 and tier 2/3. Imo a gradually applied restrictor is a lot better...or nothing at all.
I may be crap the next season as these old cars don't suit me very well, but looking at past performance there are chances that I can hang around on position 8 in a field of 24. However, I'd still say the same if I was 9th or 10th fastest without manipulation and finished the series better than someone who is actually faster.
Seems like this is set, but as you encourage feedback you're getting mine here :-)

« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 09:44:08 PM by killagorilla »

Online Wally

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2019, 08:53:23 AM »
I have considered that those at the bottom end of a tier may be disadvantaged, but I don't think it will be a huge difference. The difference between 25 and 50% restrictor is a fraction of a second.


The advantage of broad tiers as opposed to setting restrictor individually is that you still let the fastest guys be the fastest, instead of slowing them down even more. You chuck 50% restrictor on everyone, and the fastest guys will still be the fastest.


The main thing that people want here is close racing, according to my own survey results and experience. Open wheelers generally result in spread out fields.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Online GzeroD

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2019, 12:01:34 PM »
If points were awarded relative to your tier, we may end up with a new champion.
'...Some of the wings blew off. Before they could figure out how to get them to stay on, they were banned. ...Newton would have barfed.'
-Milliken, Race car vehicle dynamics

Online Wally

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2019, 12:03:33 PM »
I'm not wedded to this idea. I might just keep it simple and just do nothing. Just let the fastest guy be the champion.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Online killagorilla

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2019, 04:12:40 PM »
I have considered that those at the bottom end of a tier may be disadvantaged, but I don't think it will be a huge difference. The difference between 25 and 50% restrictor is a fraction of a second.


The advantage of broad tiers as opposed to setting restrictor individually is that you still let the fastest guys be the fastest, instead of slowing them down even more. You chuck 50% restrictor on everyone, and the fastest guys will still be the fastest.


The main thing that people want here is close racing, according to my own survey results and experience. Open wheelers generally result in spread out fields.
I wanna try to explain it hopefully a bit better and use a series with the Escort as an example.
There will be two things affected by this restrictor: lap times and the outcome of a race/overall standings. The latter is important to me and I would want that it somehow reflects my performance and skills. That's why I try to find some time during the week and prepare for a race. If it's just about close competition I could scrap that and try to have a battle at the very end of the field. It depends on where you are in the field how this restrictor affects you.
So, let's say we've got a field of 24 and they are are all 0.1s apart based on skill without manipulations. That means in the first qualy the guy on pole will be 2.4s faster than the guy qualifying last. I think it may be a bit more, but it's easy to calc so let's stick with it. So you say 25% slows you down by a fraction of a second...I make it 0.5 to show you what I mean.
If I was the 8th fastest just based on my driving skills it would be still my goal to beat the guy in front of my on 7th and if the guy on 6th makes a mistake I may even end up  on 6th in a race without manipulation, which would be the first one.
Ok, let's make it easy and assume we are all finishing as per our driving skills or qualy result.
My goal does not change. I would still want to beat the guy on 7 just in the next race. However, now we're throwing in a 3-tier restrictor and that means there is a good chance that a slower guy, let's pick the guy who finished the first race on 12th position, will be between me and the guy on 7 just because he's now 0.5s faster with a smaller restrictor.
The way I think a compression of a field should work is giving me a little advantage to help me to beat the guy on 7 next time.
This 3-tier restrictor is doing exactly the opposite, it makes it harder for me to stay close to the guy in the overall standings...and what's even worse, it's doing it systematically because this process would repeat every 2nd race. The system is rigged against me and instead of hoping that I might end up on 7 at the end of the season I would be busy enough with trying to defend my 8th position because every 2nd race there would be a number of slower guys just in front of me.
I don't think these numbers are unrealistic, so let's stick to them and see how this system would affect the top 3 drivers.
It's very easy, the battle among them would not be affected at all because they are always on the same restrictor. All three of them would benefit as the guy on 4 would get a slower guy thrown between himself and the top 3. That means the 3 fastest guys would pull away in the championship more as they would without restrictor.
That principle works with other numbers as well.
This system is clearly unfair in my eyes, it doesn't provide a level playing field and therefore I'd like to ask you to reconsider this. If it's too hard you can always scrap it and we just go without these manipulations...that would still be way better.

Online Wally

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2019, 06:51:29 PM »
Yeah, bugger it. I'll just keep it simple and not handicap anyone.
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”

Online Bacchulum

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2019, 06:53:51 PM »
I think it would be better for the escorts, if they get up.

Online killagorilla

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2019, 09:43:12 PM »
Yeah, bugger it. I'll just keep it simple and not handicap anyone.
Thanks mate  :)

Online Guybrush Threepwood

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2019, 10:22:00 PM »
You're never gonna get properly incremental handicaps.  There are thresholds and cliffs where the disadvantage increases exponentially.

Is it worth trying on a practice night over a few races?

Online GzeroD

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2019, 10:22:08 PM »
Don't let Killa dissuade you Wally.
But having said that, any system that is only in effect for such a short amount of time, one season or around 6 weeks, is never going to 'come out in the wash'.
We need to think longer term, average out our performance level over a year or so and have handicaps more representative of a drivers overall capabilities.
'...Some of the wings blew off. Before they could figure out how to get them to stay on, they were banned. ...Newton would have barfed.'
-Milliken, Race car vehicle dynamics

Online GzeroD

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2019, 10:28:48 PM »
Damn damn damn Killa's argument has several glaring holes in it, but I can't get it down in words.
More fool me.
Somebody save me.
'...Some of the wings blew off. Before they could figure out how to get them to stay on, they were banned. ...Newton would have barfed.'
-Milliken, Race car vehicle dynamics

Online Mael

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2019, 10:41:16 PM »
I will disagree with Killa on this one.

The goal of the seasons are not to determine who the fastest driver is. We know who that is from past experience. Without any ballast/restrictor  or any other artificial manipulations of the races it would become quite repetitive after a few seasons. (It is already season 28!! )

But with adjustments to the individual drivers we all get to battle different drivers each season and work around the rules to achieve the best results we can. For example I had some very good battles with Jamie this past season, probably for the first season ever.

I would say we go like the Thursday season. Start with a set of rules and then to keep things spicy, change them mid-race or just after qualification.  ;D

« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 10:43:52 PM by Mael »

Online buellersdayoff

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2019, 08:16:44 AM »
The guys @the front will always be @the front, the guys mid pack (like me if I'm not spinning) shouldn't be too concerned where mid pack because we'll also always be mid pack, however the guys @the back will be getting more mid pack battles...this is how I see the ruling and I'm OK with it. When the FIA (Wally) makes a rule....ima just go with it

Online Bird

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Re: Season 28 - tiers and restrictor
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2019, 08:37:18 AM »
Yeah Killa's argument is based on something that we do not actually aim for; all-round smooth compressing of the field.

But if just want the pack closer together, give a bit more action to people near the rear: it'll work. 
I.e. instead of having people spread over , say, a 3 second gap/lap,  this would restrict the top 1s runners by 2s, the next 1s runners by 1s.
The result; if you re-run the race, now the whole pack is spread over 1s / lap difference.    (and of course there's the question if it should work on fastest lap, average lap, or race finish time; each would constrict the field a different way, and imo the overall finish time is the best; that's the one that packs the field the best)

Of course it is imperfect, of course you won't be racing the same guy.
Those are not achievable goals, especially considering that you'll be better at one track, worse at the next.

If we want to be 100% "correct" then really, no restrictor or ballast should be applied.  But then the field will be spread out as usual.

I'm game either way :)  I do like the purest form, as well as a mixed form.

Actually; we could even try something like the BTCC rules. (although they use ballast)
http://www.btcc.net/about/key-rules-and-regulations/

Quote
Success Ballast

Cars that are successful in the BTCC must carry ballast (additional weight) in their cars. Ballast is given to the top ten runners in the following allocations:

1st: 54kg, 2nd: 48kg 3rd: 42kg, 4th: 36kg, 5th: 30kg, 6th: 24kg, 7th: 18kg, 8th: 12kg, 9th: 6kg, 10th: 6kg

    Between events, ballast is allocated according to championship positions and is carried in qualifying and race one
    For races two and three, ballast is allocated according to the finishing positions in race one and two respectively


Obviously we can't allocate anything between race1/2/3 but otherwise something like this I reckon maybe preferable. (based on championship standing)


( Altho, I just quietly put it here, again, I like the car rental system the most; where you pay for a car for a round, not getting any of the rental money back, and you earn money based on finishing position; although it maybe better based on finishing time; that'd give any slower racer a good boost )
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 09:31:07 AM by Bird »