Xtreme Gaming Network
Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Australian Assetto Corsa League, Tuesday nights => Topic started by: Wally on November 25, 2014, 11:29:45 PM
-
Now that we've had a race with the 599, do you want to keep it? Or is it too fast in a straight line and too slow in corners, ending up just being frustrating to race behind? The fastest car without it would become the BMW M3 GT2.
-
I will say no , the 599 is the odd one from all the GT cars we raced , it isnt a true race car and got too much power and worse handling to have a good race with it. 599s can easily just win straights and then block in corners as ive raced with one of 599xx.
-
From what happened tonight it seems racing behind the 599 isn't very fun and to be honest racing in it wasn't that great either because you just fly past people on the straights and end up getting swamped in the corners if you make a mistake. I'm pretty sure the only times I was passed by people who weren't in 599s was when I made a mistake, even with some of the best guys like Marty and Ed chasing they just couldn't get past me.
I don't mind being in a slightly slower car I should still be competitive with some one, I doubt I will be much slower, I might even be faster because the car is easier to handle. I will do some laps tomorrow in the BMW and the 599 around spa and see what kind of times I can get.
-
Id say no too, was very frustrating being behind 2 of them the entire 24 laps in race 2, losing lap time but unable to get past and stay there. Losing 4 seconds on the straight which took 2/3 of a lap to catch back up then even if youd get by in the last few corners then theyd just pull a huge gap down the straight.
-
Keep it for a hyper car series I reckon.
-
I didn't really see any 599s, by and large, so I don't really have an opinion either way. In my P4/5, I didn't pass anyone unless they made a mistake anyway, and I couldn't pass a couple of BMWs that I sometimes caught up to before they'd pull away again, so I don't know if that's much different to trying to pass a 599. I didn't often catch up to the back of a Beemer in the curves though - maybe the 599 was even slower in the corners. But as I said, I don't care either way.
-
I agree, drop it. Even if you overtake it an build a 2-3 car gap it'll take the position back on the s/f straight. Impossible to get past it once it is in front.
-
Wally you can check the race replay from my car the early laps up to 7 where I pitted to try get away from the 599's and then again from lap 13 after they pitted. I did run off track after losing it on my own in the lap 18 and so had clear running for a couple laps. Every other lap was the same they pull away down the straight amd Id cath them at turn 8 to 9 and try to make a move intk the last few corners only for them to pull a big gap down the straight and I catch them at turn 9. Must have happened on at least 15 of the 24 laps.
Only reason I pitted on lap 7 was to try and get away from them as I could see my lap times dropping and so I was getting further away from those ahead. This was observed by Krahl Ed and a few others that joined the train at some point. Nobody got past these 599's but some crashed while trying
-
I was thinking about this today and here's my 2 cents. Drop the 599, it's too slow in corners and a rocket in a straight line.
I enjoy the series we have and will continue to race each Tuesday regardless of what happens in the future but I asked myself today, would I rather be beaten by a more skilled driver or a less skilled driver in a faster car?
In all honesty I would rather have the same car and push myself more and eventually learn how to drive faster.
-
Here is my lap chart from the seconds race and I highlighted all the laps where I was stuck behind these 2 cars that were impossible to pass.
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/bf08/07vl6p8ankkfbnm4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/07vl6p8ankkfbnm/Capture(4).JPG)
Edwood managed to get past one of them after I had my little off as the 599 went wide somewhere, I did no that it was going to get him on the straight again and he had a fair gap and tried hard to stay ahead. He got passed by the 599 on the last lap and at that point I knew Id have a chance of passing Ed on the last lap. Actually Ed would have been far enough ahead to be clear but he got trapped behind the other 599 in the last few laps which was not letting him to extend the gap until the other 599 could get close enough to swallow him up on the straight.
Well worth watching the replay around Schimttez and Gwyar and even watching the lap animation shows how they were never passed but ended with a train of cars behind them. Its nothing against them and had they been in more even cars they'd likely have had better races too as they would have others to race more evenly with. I think Rob and M8R were pretty much the same thing looking at the lap animation but if you were side by side into the last turn with a 599 there was no chance to get by unless they had an off. You needed to pull a gap large enough to not let them by on the straight but it takes most of the lap to get back what is lost in the straight so at best you would be a few car lengths ahead out of the last turn but you'd lose 400m or so there.
-
I was thinking about this today and here's my 2 cents. Drop the 599, it's too slow in corners and a rocket in a straight line.
I enjoy the series we have and will continue to race each Tuesday regardless of what happens in the future but I asked myself today, would I rather be beaten by a more skilled driver or a less skilled driver in a faster car?
In all honesty I would rather have the same car and push myself more and eventually learn how to drive faster.
I think the handicapping is fine it does help bring racing closer its just the 599 is so different in how it gets its lap time. On pace The faster guys were always going to be hard to keep up with in the evora but the 599's made the race a bit of a farce because of how different it is.
I really dont care if they are there at Spa as I know my Evora is about 8 seconds a lap slower there so at least they wont be effecting my race at all.
-
Now let me get this straight Marty. I think what you are saying is "YOU DON'T WANT THE 599s". Is that correct :))
-
Now let me get this straight Marty. I think what you are saying is "YOU DON'T WANT THE 599s". Is that correct :))
yeah, I think there is a hint of that idea somewhere in there ☺
-
I reckon we should keep it, I enjoyed driving it and its my only chance of actually passing someone.
After all, isn't that the point of handicap racing, to give slower drivers faster cars?
In R2 they only finished in 3rd,9th,10th,15th and 20th, so its not like they dominated the race, and in R1 they were further down.
Also gives a bit more variety of cars in the field.
-
WHAT! I need it! haha I believe I will be in it any rounds that I run in, infact that was why I painted a skin!
I understand it may be frustrating, but it is either a 'train' of indentical cars with indentical skilled drivers going around until a mistake, or a mechanical failure
or
it's mixed. I hear plenty of , 'hot lapped, got bored'... I think the 599 certainly made it interesting for me and a challenge for others.
-
I doubt that I will be driving the 599 again so I think I can give an unbiased opinion.
Isn't the whole idea of mixed class racing that different cars will have different strengths and weaknesses. There will always be faster cars that don't handle. If we keep weeding out the cars that hold up the faster drivers it will end up a one car spec race, with the fast guys way in front and the slow guys being lapped.
Wally's handicap system is in its infancy but given time I am sure that all the drivers will end up in the car that they deserve. This will give us close racing with plenty of challenges. We need to be patient to let Wally's system even out all the cars and drivers. If that means leaving the 599 in for the slower drivers so be it.
I know it's impractical, but a good handicap system means that ALL drivers have a chance to win.
And lets not forget that this is supposed to be fun. Its not all a bout winning, but about having a good time with hard fair racing with a bunch of great blokes.
Just my 2c worth.
rob
-
It's hard to pass ANY car, as I found. Not just the 599's.
-
I know it's impractical, but a good handicap system means that ALL drivers have a chance to win.
And lets not forget that this is supposed to be fun. Its not all a bout winning, but about having a good time with hard fair racing with a bunch of great blokes.
A good handicap system gives all drivers a fair chance to compete, against a 599 there is no hope in an Evora and pretty much the same in the other gt cars on most tracks. Making those that can win in equal cars then have no chance after handicapping means its working great if that is the intention of the handicaps.
Its not even down to lap times its just that they get 3.5 seconds advantage down the straight so thats a pretty nice DRS zone they get every single lap. Exit the last turn next to them and thats how much time you lose by t1, if your less then 3 seconds ahead out of the last turn you will be behind into t1.
Get alongside at least once nearly every lap after getting back the 3.5 seconds lost down the straight to end up 3.5 seconds down into t1 again on the next lap, Priceless ;D
-
Marty, can you try and rephrase that 1st paragraph, please? I can't wrap my brain around it.
Btw reading others' opinions I recall the GTL times where we have raced all sorts of different cars all the time; small and nimble against big powerful hunks of metal...so I think I'll say suck it up and let Bruce have his fun, too
-
ya gotta remember, that a slow driver will still be slow in the best car compared to a proficient driver in the same car...
If I out did the faster drivers in the slower cars in qual... then I would be hard to pass, until I stuff up, but the first part hasn't happened yet :o
-
Interestingly despite the advantage the 599's held at Mugello, 4 out of 5 drivers have them again for Spa. So it cant have been that they were that fast overall it was just as mentioned previously the way they achieved their speed. I also found them frustrating to be behind, but obviously the trick is to not get caught behind one...
-
Interestingly despite the advantage the 599's held at Mugello, 4 out of 5 drivers have them again for Spa. So it cant have been that they were that fast overall it was just as mentioned previously the way they achieved their speed. I also found them frustrating to be behind, but obviously the trick is to not get caught behind one...
That's because for some, even the 599 is not fast enough to get them mid pack.
Anyway, this thread is notabout the hhandicapping system, but whether to includethe 599.
-
I agree with Marty, they have too much straight line speed advantage. Tactics are great when you're trying to work out how much lead you need entering a straight to stay in front of another car at the end of the straight, but the 599 made that equation a bit crazy. Then like Marty said if you get 2 of them in front of you, you just give up.
-
Interestingly despite the advantage the 599's held at Mugello, 4 out of 5 drivers have them again for Spa. So it cant have been that they were that fast overall it was just as mentioned previously the way they achieved their speed. I also found them frustrating to be behind, but obviously the trick is to not get caught behind one...
That's because for some, even the 599 is not fast enough to get them mid pack.
Anyway, this thread is notabout the hhandicapping system, but whether to includethe 599.
It would be good to see the lap times of the guys in 599's at Mugello in GT2 cars to see how they would have gone. I don't think lap time wise its a huge advantage especially for a non alien but head to head with other cars running similar lap times they are pretty much unbeatable on most tracks if your in a gt car. The 599 is also the only car in the field with active DRS which is the main reason why its so quick in a straight line.
-
Yeah i found the speed diference awkward, it was just so big in places lol and a few times down the straight i didnt even see them come up behind me they were that quick
-
Just did a few laps around Spa with the 599 and BMW.
Managed a 2:19.0** in the 599 and a 2:20.4** in the BMW with more in both cars if I could put in together better, Probably more gains in the BMW than the 599 at this stage, might change as I'm close to the BMW WR than I am to the 599 WR.
Currently Marty and Guy have times around the 2:20 mark in the Evora GTC but that will probably change once they really go for it.
I have managed to get in to the 2:19s at some stage in the MP4 12C, 458 GT2 and the M3 GT2 at some stage since 1.0 came out but they were set before about RC 1.0.5 and it feels like the grip level is different now but it might not be.
So the 599 isn't really a massive advantage to me unless I put in a lot of practise and get a decent amount better but, It looks like the lap times around going to be closer around spa than they were around Mugello for me at least.
-
Here is a video of my full replay in race 2 sped up quite a bit to make it shorter, just to show what its like to be behind the 599's for those that didn't have the privilege.
I stopped early to try get away from them, you can see lap count on my name in the left corner along with live gaps to cars around. Also you can see the map and see how those 599's pull their gaps. Also note the cars banking up behind me and quite a few having an off as they weren't used to going as slow in some sections. My off on lap 17 was because the car in front slowed even more then I expected and lifting there in this car just gets it nasty loose so I beached it to avoid hitting him.
[youtube]F5dvNrBmzi4[/youtube]
-
Marty, the computer says 'no', the video is private.
-
Not being able to pass a car is one thing, doing 3/4 of the lap at 3/4 throttle is another. :(
When it did make a mistake, it took me out as I tried to pass (redressing only worked until the straight, then back to frustration).
My biased opinion is no.
-
We're divided on this issue...and I'm a bit on the fence with it, too. Maybe I should remove my vote, it'd make it less divided, since I've voted "yes" after all. I haven't been stuck behind one.
I think as I see it the problem is that the GT car behind is being held up by a car that can do 1-2s slower laps, only, so it should not be in front. But that "slower" (by laptime) car has such enormous power that it'll always be back in front on the straights . It's a bit weird situation, although, as I said, it's not *that* different from what we had in GTL times...maybe it's a bit more accentuated here.
Edit: I've removed my vote, I'm really not decided. I keep thinking it's good...then: it's bad...:)
-
I'm leaning towards removing it, because it's ”out of step” with the other cars, with its massive straight line speed. When I was behind Dave's BMW in the P4/5, for example, our lap times were about the same, but there was no huge rubber banding of the gap. It was much more about parity.
-
Keep it (incase i need it)
-
Marty, the computer says 'no', the video is private.
Sorry about that I was just keeping it to myself, was pretty sure it was just unlisted but should be good now.
[youtube]F5dvNrBmzi4[/youtube]
You only need to see the first 1:30 which was the last 4 laps before I had enough and went into the pits at the earliest possible chance with 17 laps to go. ;D Completely opposite to my intended strategy, then the joy I had when they both pulled out of pits ahead of me on laps 13 and 14 to only be stuck behind them again for the remainder of the race could explain why I have the view that I have.
-
The one thing that buggers me, Marty, is that they have pulled out in front of you after all the pits - how is that possible, if you had a couple of s/lap on them? You should have had a safe 5-10s or so gap on them by that time, shouldn't you?
I mean with a normal pit strategy it's a moot point, you can't beat them, but with yours the chance was seemingly there...
-
I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here as I'm yet to sign up for a league with you guys yet. I'm just thinking back to my days with GTL and P&G where we had similar situations with the cars we where racing.
For example I used to drive the mini and others the GT or Falcon. Yes there where some tracks where what happened to those behind the 599 happened to me/us but then there where other tracks where that wasn't an issue because it didn't suit the faster cars.
Our reasoning back then was this is what happened in the day where the nimble cars dominated one track and the muscle cars dominated others. It was still fun having to overtake the monsters. Maybe it needs to be tested on varying tracks? Maybe the season needs to take this into consideration?
Not involved so I hope I haven't put my 2c worth in where it isn't warranted.
-
The one thing that buggers me, Marty, is that they have pulled out in front of you after all the pits - how is that possible, if you had a couple of s/lap on them? You should have had a safe 5-10s or so gap on them by that time, shouldn't you?
I mean with a normal pit strategy it's a moot point, you can't beat them, but with yours the chance was seemingly there...
Well the strategy didnt work as planned seeing as first I missed my pit spot and had to reverse back then was in reverse when I got dropped so lost about 5 seconds there. The second part that didnt work is to make 17 laps I needed a full tank and hard tyres so my pace on cold hards was slower then had I stayed behind them on the first few laps including a bad pit stop. They had already used half a tank and were on softer tyres so pitting early wasnt a great option. Having 5 laps in the clear I needed to make about 6 seconds up on them to clear them. Had I not lost time in the pits it wouod have had more chance but there was no way to pass them on track.
Its not what I wanted to do but staying out I assumed id just stay there or have a crash and didnt want to ruin their race as mine was already done. Trying something different was about my only option and even though it didnt work there wasnt much else I could do.
-
I'm going to withhold my vote on this one, as there's good arguments both for and against. That said though looking at the tracks coming
up I think what played out last night will probably repeat itself. As gawaterman pointed though the 599s certainly didn't dominate.
Dave O.
-
Thanks Marty. I think it was a sound strategy. But maybe on mediums. Once you are ahead ... and of course you need to hit the box without reversing.
-
I'm going to withhold my vote on this one, as there's good arguments both for and against. That said though looking at the tracks coming
up I think what played out last night will probably repeat itself. As gawaterman pointed though the 599s certainly didn't dominate.
Dave O.
I guess there is no reason to not do one more round at least and Spa will be likely worse then Mugello due to 2 fast sections so it will show if it really is best to not have them. They didnt dominate as they really arent that much easier to get lap speed out of around mugello, they would be quite a pig everywhere except the main straight. Its not really anything to do with them being too fast lap time wise its just they are a bit too different in how they achieve that time.
Bird, Mediums wouldnt last for me as long, I tested them and I was already quicker by lap 8 to 9 if on hards and they could easily do the full tank run I needed. Mediums would be pretty sketchy well before lap 17 there which is what my final stint had to be, also my best lap on hards in practice was a 1:47.5 vs a 1:46.7 on softs they were just a bit slower in the first 2 laps then just got better as the fuel burned. For 12 laps medium was close but still hards easier to get pace at 100% grip vs meds on 98% and dropping.
-
The ideal handicap system would alter the grip in the corners only. I think it just means there will need to be more aggressive overtaking through corners if the 599 was to stay.
-
The vote's looking pretty decisive, so I'll remove the 599, before Spa, and redo the car allocations.
-
Get rid of it
Was nothing but a pain in the #%@ most of the time.
I seriously couldn't believe a car that quick in a straight line could be such a dog in the corners.
-
Gone!
-
Get rid of it
Was nothing but a pain in the #%@ most of the time.
I seriously couldn't believe a car that quick in a straight line could be such a dog in the corners.
Nice road test report, makes me feel better, I believed it was just my crap driving :-[
-
What are You talking about Bruce? You are one of the best!
I probably could have said it better obviously, but the series needs a good balance of cars, and the 599
is the odd one out.
-
What are You talking about Bruce? You are one of the best!
I probably could have said it better obviously, but the series needs a good balance of cars, and the 599
is the odd one out.
No problems Imp. I liked your report.