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Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Australian Assetto Corsa League, Tuesday nights => Topic started by: Wally on December 09, 2014, 11:07:35 PM

Title: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 09, 2014, 11:07:35 PM
Car Allocations (slowest, 1:53.430 to fastest, 1:49.317):

 
DriverOld CarNew Car
StanDaamLotus Evora GTCP4/5 CompetizioneMcLaren MP4-12C GT3
GrubbetBMW M3 GT2BMW M3 GT2
ImperiousBMW M3 GT2BMW M3 GT2
FlattopBMW M3 GT2BMW M3 GT2
SchmittezBMW M3 GT2BMW M3 GT2
GratulinMercedes SLS GT3McLaren MP4-12C GT3P4/5 Competizione
Dave OBMW M3 GT2BMW M3 GT2
BacchulumMcLaren MP4-12C GT3Ferrari 458 GT2]BMW M3 GT2
GWyarBMW M3 GT2BMW M3 GT2
Rob [Team MRT]Ferrari 458 GT2Ferrari 458 GT2BMW M3 GT2
EdWoodLotus Evora GXLotus Evora GX
RPMBMW M3 GT2BMW M3 GT2
Wally [TKO Racing]Mercedes SLS GT3Mercedes SLS GT3
Vipergod [Team MRT]BMW M3 GT2BMW M3 GT2Ferrari 458 GT2
FreezerP4/5 CompetizioneMercedes SLS GT3P4/5 Competizione
Ysu [TKO Racing]Lotus Evora GTCLotus Evora GTC
TomLotus Evora GTCLotus Evora GX
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels]Lotus Evora GXLotus Evora GX
Marty [Achilles Heels]Lotus Evora GTCLotus Evora GX
M8RMercedes SLS GT3Lotus Evora GTC
Matthew111Lotus Evora GXLotus Evora GX
KrahlMercedes SLS GT3Lotus Evora GX


Other drivers:
Aiman - Lotus Evora GX
cramjet - Ferrari 458 GT2
Insomniac - BMW M3 GT2
Phil - Ferrari 458 GT2

Edit: Hi Wally, I took the liberty to correct the tags. Bruce.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 09, 2014, 11:40:50 PM
A bit of admin

Can the following people download the latest version of the cutting app (0.7) from THIS LINK (http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/a-pit-lane-penalty-app-for-repeated-track-cutting.17852/)

Matthew111
Tom
Vipergod
Grubbet

Yes, I will fix it so it resets the warnings on session restart.

Teamspeak
If you're not already running TeamSpeak, please consider it, so you know what's going on on the night if we call race restarts, rolling start decisions like at Monza T1 etc. You don't have to have a mic, but if you can at least hear us, it will make the night run smoother.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 10, 2014, 12:22:59 AM
Seems there are a lots moving into Evora GX's next round, I thought the handicaps were quite good at Monza with the best race lap for many being very close. If the guys that were in GT3 or GTC but already close to the 1:50 mark then I dont think putting them in a slower car is going to help them.

I know Wally you handicap on average lap but I dont think thats not as good an indicator as a persons best race lap for the nite. This shows their true race pace, here I have listed the field and their best race lap in order.

Krahl    mercedes_sls_gt3    1:49:317  1:50:055
Matthew    lotus_evora_gx    1:50:810 1:49:983
M8R    mercedes_sls_gt3    1:50:319  1:50:022
Marty       lotus_evora_gtc    1:50:215  1:50:096
Guybrush lotus_evora_gx    1:50:166  1:50:102
Tom    lotus_evora_gtc    1:50:221 1:57:240
Ysu            lotus_evora_gtc    1:52:083 1:50:475
Freezer    p4-5_2011            1:50:641  1:51:130
Vipergod bmw_m3_gt2            1:53:299 1:50:792
Wally    mercedes_sls_gt3    1:51:930 1:50:794
RPM    bmw_m3_gt2            1:52:187  1:50:948
EdWood    lotus_evora_gx    1:51:391 1:51:102
Rob           ferrari_458_gt2    1:51:944 1:51:241
GWyar    bmw_m3_gt2            1:52:440 1:51:391
Dave O     bmw_m3_gt2            1:53:505 1:51:667
Gratulin      mercedes_sls_gt3    1:53:761 1:51:825
Schmittez  bmw_m3_gt2    1:53:580 1:51:972
Bacchulum mp412c_gt3            1:51:624 1:52:077
Flattop    bmw_m3_gt2            1:52:512
Imperious  bmw_m3_gt2    1:53:441 1:52:844
Grubbet     bmw_m3_gt2            1:53:641 1:53:325
StanDaam  lotus_evora_gtc    1:53:430 1:53:684

I think the handicapping worked quite well and going by this I think the only person that should get a slower car then they were in is Krahl, his lap being .7 under 1:50 is a pretty big margin to second. Seeing from second fastest to 10th fastest there is only a gap of 1 second so I think these should all probably stay as they are.

The people from Edwood down I think could do with a car boost if possible, I would also change the guys further back in M3 GT2 cars into the Ferrari as I think it is the quicker car of the 2 gt2's. Edwood could get a boost into a gt3 or p4/5, Gratulin into a GT2 and StanDaam also into a GT2 going by his laptimes. The others already in M3 GT2 probably would get the boost moving to the ferrari.

There really isnt much difference in the Evora's but clearly Guy is still quicker then me if its a slower car and we pretty much had the same pace through both races. My best race lap was only .008 faster then his and I get dropped down a car. Same as M8R who was pretty much the same pace yet he has been dropped to the slowest car from one a few steps up.

Sorry for being a pain and questioning your authority Wally  ;D but I just think if you move people down when they are just at the front of the pack time wise it just means next round they will be further off the pace. Then the week after they will likely be way off the pace getting a much faster car for the round after, if the guys all within 1 second of the realistic lead pace stay as they are and anyone much faster like Krahl should get an extra handicap with everyone else being moved closer towards the times possible by the fastest guy in the slowest car.

There is no slower car for Guy so I think handicapping so everyone can be + or - .5 of this laptime would be the ideal solution. Nurburgring probably will have bigger gaps being a more technical track but I think the lead pack was quite evenly matched this week.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 10, 2014, 07:39:42 AM
That order is only subtly different to the order using the two races.

" I just think if you move people down when they are just at the front of the pack time wise it just means next round they will be further off the pace"

No, it gets them closer to the average time across the field, which is always the goal - to compress then field. Faster guys get slower cars.

To get the entire field of 20 guys of very different speeds to within 4 seconds over a nearly 2 minute lap shows the system is working.

I do agree though that just using the fastest time is probably a better indication of their pace. It would only make some subtle differences, but I'll give it a go.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on December 10, 2014, 08:00:39 AM
I think average is more realistic.  Over the course of a race if I happen to jag a hot lap which may be due to drafting, the odd cut, throwing on some softs for the last dash or just plain keeping it together then that just reflects my 10/10's pace rather than my race reality.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 10, 2014, 08:10:52 AM
I've updated the first post with a few changes, using the fastest lap.

I think it's worth a go Freezer. Mostly the second race was faster for guys, most likely because they've got more laps in that combo under their belt, and it reflects better their actual ability.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 10, 2014, 08:52:24 AM
Ideally I guess it would be the average of say the 3 fastest laps.  But I think we might be starting to split hairs.  The system seems to be working fairly well - as long as there are no Z4's involved! ;)
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 10, 2014, 09:57:52 AM

" I just think if you move people down when they are just at the front of the pack time wise it just means next round they will be further off the pace"

No, it gets them closer to the average time across the field, which is always the goal - to compress then field. Faster guys get slower cars.

To get the entire field of 20 guys of very different speeds to within 4 seconds over a nearly 2 minute lap shows the system is working.

I do agree though that just using the fastest time is probably a better indication of their pace. It would only make some subtle differences, but I'll give it a go.

The only problem with getting people closer to the average across the field is you cant slow the guys in the Evora's down any more. So Its probably better trying to get all times closer to the fastest guy in the slowest car. If the fastest guy in the slowest car has no hope as in Spa it shows some guys had cars a bit too quick there. Also the slowest guys still may not quite get enough boost but unfortunatly there arent any other gt type cars they can go to. I dont think you want to slow anyone more then this fastest guybrush  ;) in the slowest car.

But looking at those best laps I was amazed how close the actual pace was which showed the handicap worked very well and most of the field was actually within a couple seconds if you take out the fastest and bottom 4 so this mid pack was very close and was good to race. Race 1 in equal cars the time gaps throughout must have been much larger and also much bigger gaps up front.

The problem with the average lap between the 2 races I see is there could be a race you have a damaged car or stuck in traffic the entire time. This will mean your laptimes will be a bit skewed also for those that didnt do much practice they will generally get quicker in race 2. I think thats more the persons true pace and I dont know how much gain there is in a draft.

Maybe some cars that are running high aero its more true but if I was ever close enough to someone to draft I had to slow more in the next corner either to pass or avoid hitting the guy ahead if I couldnt make a move. A higher aero car getting a draft will normally lose time passing or need to back off in corners if not making a move. The speed boost up the straight is rarely going to give a lap benefit. At Monza ferrari tries and fails this every year in qualy so its much harder to gain then it appears.

Thanks for considering the small change Wally and it will be interesting to see how it goes next round. Its a very different track so aero should help the gt2 cats a bit more hopefully. This should bring the guys a little off pace closer to the front.

.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 10, 2014, 10:21:59 AM
I think it has to be the middle ground, or the average time, because you just get bitten by the same problem at the other end. You can't make the guys in the fastest cars any faster. You're ultimately hamstrung at both ends, without the flexibility of ballast. So long as guys can have close racing with at least someone, that's the main thing.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 10, 2014, 10:36:02 AM
Yea its always the issue with a limit in cars available, if there was ballast it could possibly work combined with car handicaps in a series like this. Having 6 seconds of ballast in a one make series I think would be rather nasty but if you had a car that was already slower then it wouldnt need so much ballast. There could also be minor fine tuning of ballast between people in the same cars and so I think a combination of ballast and varied cars may be the best solution in the end.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Phil on December 10, 2014, 11:00:54 AM
What does "other" mean? Do I sit out next week? :'(
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 10, 2014, 11:13:35 AM
What does "other" mean? Do I sit out next week? :'(

No no. That's just because you weren't in this last round, and your car didn't change.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Phil on December 10, 2014, 03:08:24 PM
Great, thanks Wally.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bacchulum on December 10, 2014, 05:32:17 PM
So it's the red car I get, is it Wally?
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on December 10, 2014, 05:59:10 PM
I think it has to be the middle ground, or the average time, because you just get bitten by the same problem at the other end. You can't make the guys in the fastest cars any faster. You're ultimately hamstrung at both ends, without the flexibility of ballast. So long as guys can have close racing with at least someone, that's the main thing.
So now I'm confused.  Are we sticking with the original choice of car or the amended (red ones).
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 10, 2014, 11:14:38 PM
Pretty sure it would be the red ones as that was Wally's edit's not mine.  ;) He did cross out the others and made them red to stand out.

I think it will be interesting here and the GT2 cars should have a nice advantage with the higher grip levels. We need to run fairly low aero again in the Loti just to hang on in the straights but will lose quite a bit each corner. There will be lots of tears shed in t1, I just had a run with Krahl and locked rears on entry damaging both cars quite nicely.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 10, 2014, 11:44:21 PM
Yes folks, its the red car. The old car is struck out.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 11, 2014, 07:12:58 AM
Yeah the thing about Spa and Monza is that they are low down force circuits so you can run minimum rear wing, where as I believe Hamburgering will need a bit more down force for overall lap time so may be tougher to pass with.  But then again as more races pass I think the drivers more likely to be up front aren't in the cars with the massive straight line advantage.   Except for that Wally guy ;).
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 11, 2014, 09:04:43 AM
Lol Wallys merc may be changed and he may be re handicapped, looking at rsr times there it seems to be quite a pig and the aliens Ben and Darren have posted faster laps in the GTC then anyone in the merc. Merc doesnt like corners much but loves straights and Nurburgring is a very different track to Spa, Monza even Mugello. Those 3 are very high speed but nurburg is all about braking and corner speeds as the straights are not very long. The Merc will be quick uo the hill in some llaces where the evoras are struggling but we can carry a fair bit more speed through corners I think.

Guys in the M3 should find it more of a boost and the gt3 to be in if you had a choice would be the mclaren over the sls Wally.  ;)
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Gratulin on December 11, 2014, 10:43:27 AM
Can you guys stop discussing the handicapping! Last time I ended up getting a slower car!
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Matthew111 on December 11, 2014, 11:20:28 AM
ill happily go the merc again, despite it being a brick i loved it haha im pouring petrol all over my lotus once im done with it :P
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bird on December 11, 2014, 12:20:49 PM
Can you guys stop discussing the handicapping! Last time I ended up getting a slower car!
That's their aim, haven't you noticed? ;)
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 11, 2014, 01:44:30 PM
Can you guys stop discussing the handicapping! Last time I ended up getting a slower car!
That's their aim, haven't you noticed? ;)

Not happy til Gratulin gets a Robbin.  ;D
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Gratulin on December 11, 2014, 02:01:50 PM
Can you guys stop discussing the handicapping! Last time I ended up getting a slower car!
That's their aim, haven't you noticed? ;)

Not happy til Gratulin gets a Robbin.  ;D
I bet I'd still come 10th  8)
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 11, 2014, 02:22:20 PM
Where you 10th again last round? With 20 odd starters each round you do seem to like being mr Average Gratulin.  ;D
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Gratulin on December 11, 2014, 03:04:19 PM
Where you 10th again last round? With 20 odd starters each round you do seem to like being mr Average Gratulin.  ;D
I think 11th and 12th - very average indeed.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 11, 2014, 08:04:08 PM
Ran some laps in the Evora GX strange car this one as it does best with 0 0 wing for me, the GTC at Monza I couldnt handle at 0 2 and thats a much more straightforward track. Also the soft tyres start at 99% go to 100% on lap 2 then back to 99% on lap 3 but lap 3 is quite a bit quicker for me then lap 2 for unknown reasons.

Best so far is 1:58.421 but not close to a great lap and surely setup has lots more in it but here is what I have so far for qualy if anyone want to try it. It may need some changes for the race but I cant give away all my secrets even if they are just imagined.





[Old attachment deleted by admin to free up space]
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bacchulum on December 11, 2014, 10:12:50 PM
What's your tyre pressure difference between laps 2 & 3?
Maybe not optimal grip but better pressure?
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bacchulum on December 12, 2014, 04:28:01 PM
Here's my BMW skin for this round:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/36igqvk781l5jdy/Aleph0_37_BMW_M3_GT2.7z (http://www.mediafire.com/download/36igqvk781l5jdy/Aleph0_37_BMW_M3_GT2.7z)
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 12, 2014, 04:42:43 PM
What's your tyre pressure difference between laps 2 & 3?
Maybe not optimal grip but better pressure?

I will need to take a closer look but it didnt seem to be much difference in pressures and temps, but I probably haven't quite got the tyres up to temp into the first sector of the hotlap. They are good at the last 2/3 of the lap but Im down quite a bit in the first sector on lap 2 compared to lap 3. Lap 3 I do lose a bit in the last sector but not as much as I lost in the first sector of lap 2.

At Spa in the GTC it was quite tricky to get the tyres good for the flyer but the GTC tyres are very different to the GX, there I had to go very easy in the first 2/3 of the outlap to avoid over wearing the softs, but you also needed to build some temp into them for t1.

In the GX the softs do last much longer but are harder to get going, maybe it needs 2 slower outlaps then get the tyres right for lap 3 with full grip and proper pressures and temps. Just takes more patience then I probably have but to get the next .5 or so out of the car it may be the best way to do it.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bacchulum on December 12, 2014, 06:55:18 PM
Now the important painting is out of the way, I guess I should do a lap or two. :P
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 13, 2014, 06:56:10 AM
Is it just me or does this track seem extremely bumpy?  Maybe it's just the GX but it feels like I am driving over  a constant ripple strip or something.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Gratulin on December 13, 2014, 08:52:10 AM
I tried the GTC with Marty's set and it almost rattled my teeth out. P4/5 is not like that at all.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 13, 2014, 09:22:29 AM
There is definitely something weird with the Evora GTC/GX suspension.  It seems to suffer from bumps more than any other car - even the open wheelers seem to cope better over the bumps and I would imagine something like the Formula Abarth to have a fraction of the travel and dampening compared to the Evora.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 13, 2014, 01:17:35 PM
I tried the GTC with Marty's set and it almost rattled my teeth out. P4/5 is not like that at all.

I think youd need to soften the gtc setup from my Monza set, the GX I have had to soften a bit too. When you go into another gt car from the evora though they all feel like boats.  ;D

I havent ran much on the softs in the GX but guy was rather quick in a few laps lat nite. He has an interesting strategy for the 8 lapper, runs softs for 5 or 6 laps then as they go off will take out the field at the chicane. I wamted to see how kuch he lost on the last 2 laps but he just wouldnt run that long.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bird on December 13, 2014, 02:29:18 PM
1:58.7 in the GTC, using my own creation for a setup (attached if anyone interested)

This after a few laps only, I'm sure there's more in there.


[Old attachment deleted by admin to free up space]
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 13, 2014, 04:21:56 PM
I tried the GTC with Marty's set and it almost rattled my teeth out. P4/5 is not like that at all.

I think youd need to soften the gtc setup from my Monza set, the GX I have had to soften a bit too. When you go into another gt car from the evora though they all feel like boats.  ;D

I havent ran much on the softs in the GX but guy was rather quick in a few laps lat nite. He has an interesting strategy for the 8 lapper, runs softs for 5 or 6 laps then as they go off will take out the field at the chicane. I wamted to see how kuch he lost on the last 2 laps but he just wouldnt run that long.

It wasn't the tyres that were the issue, more so the boredom/interest levels.  I mean who can do more than 6 laps without giving in to the infamous superman jump; aiming to go inverted over the top of another car while giving them the bird - Top Gun style.

I think my best is a 1.57.1 atm.  There is another couple of tenths in that though.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bacchulum on December 13, 2014, 05:15:40 PM
I reckon I'd be quicker in the Macca GT3 than the BMW GT2.
Twitchy as hell until I want to turn a corner, then she plows on straight ahead.
Should have the hang of it in 3 or 4 weeks....
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 13, 2014, 05:43:50 PM
I tried the GTC with Marty's set and it almost rattled my teeth out. P4/5 is not like that at all.

I think youd need to soften the gtc setup from my Monza set, the GX I have had to soften a bit too. When you go into another gt car from the evora though they all feel like boats.  ;D

I havent ran much on the softs in the GX but guy was rather quick in a few laps lat nite. He has an interesting strategy for the 8 lapper, runs softs for 5 or 6 laps then as they go off will take out the field at the chicane. I wamted to see how kuch he lost on the last 2 laps but he just wouldnt run that long.

It wasn't the tyres that were the issue, more so the boredom/interest levels.  I mean who can do more than 6 laps without giving in to the infamous superman jump; aiming to go inverted over the top of another car while giving them the bird - Top Gun style.

I think my best is a 1.57.1 atm.  There is another couple of tenths in that though.

On my calculations that means at least 5 jumps on race nite in 32 race laps.

I just ran the mediums last nite got down to 1:59.2 on those, will need to try the softs again and see if they are good for the sprint race at least. I guess guy being low 57 on softs probably also low 58 on meds. Id need a gt3 propbably for that sort of pace but superman must be worth a second at least.  ;)
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 13, 2014, 07:01:56 PM
I'm vaguely 59 in the Merc with full tank and hards, on a good lap.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 14, 2014, 11:03:54 PM
I'm vaguely 59 in the Merc with full tank and hards, on a good lap.

Wally could you find anyway to make yourself appear slower, Full tank + Hards means low fuel and softs would be about 4 seconds faster. That would make laps around 1:55  ;)

I gave up making my own setup, I was completely lost and well behind Guy, tried his and after a few laps got quite a bit closer. Still a long way off Wally's pace as I can do 1:57.2 but full tank and hards I wouldn't get anywhere near sub 2 min.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 15, 2014, 07:35:54 AM
Yeah I put a set up in my droppings box if anyone wants one.  It's for the GX.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 15, 2014, 07:42:53 AM
I'm vaguely 59 in the Merc with full tank and hards, on a good lap.

Wally could you find anyway to make yourself appear slower, Full tank + Hards means low fuel and softs would be about 4 seconds faster. That would make laps around 1:55  ;)

I gave up making my own setup, I was completely lost and well behind Guy, tried his and after a few laps got quite a bit closer. Still a long way off Wally's pace as I can do 1:57.2 but full tank and hards I wouldn't get anywhere near sub 2 min.

I'll do my best on race night.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on December 15, 2014, 09:10:07 AM
I gave up making my own setup, I was completely lost and well behind Guy,
Its a bit of a black art.  I find in AC its a lot more tricky to get right than say Rfactor when I used to apply similar things to get a result.
I often surprise myself in AC when a certain tweak suddenly gets a good gain.....
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 15, 2014, 09:32:57 AM
The thing about AC set ups are that the sliders arent based on the same value so a slider setting of 10 in one car might give you a totally different real world value compared to the same slider setting in another car.   This wouldn't be such an issue if the actual measurements were accurate but unfortunately these are taken as the car sits on the pit lane and so you could all sorts of different measurements depending on which track you are.

So then what it comes down to is pretty much trial and error with a bit of educated guess work along the way.   Of course not all settings rely on the pit lane surface but there are quite a few that do and have significant  impact on the handling of the car.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 15, 2014, 09:39:02 AM
I gave up making my own setup, I was completely lost and well behind Guy,
Its a bit of a black art.  I find in AC its a lot more tricky to get right than say Rfactor when I used to apply similar things to get a result.
I often surprise myself in AC when a certain tweak suddenly gets a good gain.....

Normally I make my own setup but was just going the wrong direction I think this time. Also being the first time I drove the car with not heaps of laps I wanted to see if Guy had found a much better way then me.

I took a second off using his set vs mine so I guess he has gone a more correct way then I was but I will still likely tweak some things (aka make it worse ;D) as it seems a bit of time left in it. I had only ran a few laps with his but quite a few in mine and found large chunks of time straight away.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 15, 2014, 08:07:00 PM
I just saw on the all-time stats that we are equal on race wins Marty with 12 a piece... I may or may not have put up a "dummy" setup :p

Actually your overall score is better than mine in the all-time stats, so I have some catching up to do!
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 15, 2014, 08:42:41 PM
I just saw on the all-time stats that we are equal on race wins Marty with 12 a piece... I may or may not have put up a "dummy" setup :p

Actually your overall score is better than mine in the all-time stats, so I have some catching up to do!

Your still generally quicker then me everywhere, I have only beaten you head to head in equal cars a couple times if you havent had other issues. If your setup is a dummy then I must be one because it worked better then mine.  ;D

Still surprised we haven't had contact in a proper race as yet but only a few times I have been close enough to you to actually hit you without resorting to a superman jump.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Gratulin on December 15, 2014, 10:59:37 PM
Freezer, have you managed any laps in the P4/5 yet? What times are you getting? I'm not breaking 2:00 and mostly doing 2:02s in race trim. Everyone else that I can see times for are doing 1:59s easily in race trim and 1:57s PBs even in slower cars. Stan Daam is doing those times in the MP4 which I got kicked out of because of Marty. I tried the MP4 and I was a bit faster in that in just a couple of laps. So sort of hoping it is the P4/5 but probably me being slow around here?
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 15, 2014, 11:16:57 PM
Freezer, have you managed any laps in the P4/5 yet? What times are you getting? I'm not breaking 2:00 and mostly doing 2:02s in race trim. Everyone else that I can see times for are doing 1:59s easily in race trim and 1:57s PBs even in slower cars. Stan Daam is doing those times in the MP4 which I got kicked out of because of Marty. I tried the MP4 and I was a bit faster in that in just a couple of laps. So sort of hoping it is the P4/5 but probably me being slow around here?

Maybe you would have been too quick in the Mp4 and so finished inside the top 10, also I dont pick cars  ;) but maybe Wally gave you one for the best chance at remaining in your usual spot.

Looking at RSR the MP4 is a little quicker mostly due to a higher top speed, RSR Records show the cars to be in this order.

M3 GT2 1:53.480
458 GT2 1:53.670
MP4 12C gt3 1:54.778
P4/5 1:55.763
Evora GTC 1:56.004
Merc SLS 1:56.216
Evora GX 1:57.022

I had a little practice run with Stan and Djosh, I just stayed ahead of Stan for 11 laps then I kind of hit him on t1 of the last lap just after he got by me. Pretty sure I was holding him up as I couldn't get away and was running a pretty good pace for me so had he got ahead on lap 1 I probably wouldn't have seen him again. I expect guy to run mid 58's but there may be a few others around there, Wally hasnt set a lap in the Merc yet as it would probably be well under the RSR record.  ;D

I also found the Evora GX is just short of making the race on fuel, its able to do 21 laps on a tank but pretty sure it would be quicker to stop well earlier then that.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 15, 2014, 11:21:41 PM
Freezer, have you managed any laps in the P4/5 yet? What times are you getting? I'm not breaking 2:00 and mostly doing 2:02s in race trim. Everyone else that I can see times for are doing 1:59s easily in race trim and 1:57s PBs even in slower cars. Stan Daam is doing those times in the MP4 which I got kicked out of because of Marty. I tried the MP4 and I was a bit faster in that in just a couple of laps. So sort of hoping it is the P4/5 but probably me being slow around here?

I think I have a setup for that which I happened to do a 10 minute job while in a public server the other day.  I'll put it up when I'm at my PC tomorrow if it helps.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 16, 2014, 07:38:49 AM
I don't really bother with RSR times in general. I just set the car up and learn it in race trim. I don't have RSR running most of the time.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: StanDaam on December 16, 2014, 11:48:47 AM
I got kicked out of because of Marty. I tried the MP4 and I was a bit faster in that in just a couple of laps.
Evil Marty and his outlandish ideas!!  ;D
I was the other way round, I was in the P4/5 then the evil monkey pointed his finger at me and I got the MP4... Schweet Mate!!  :D
Maybe you didn't pay the evil monkey enough bananas?  :)
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Freezer on December 16, 2014, 12:13:30 PM
Freezer, have you managed any laps in the P4/5 yet? What times are you getting? I'm not breaking 2:00 and mostly doing 2:02s in race trim. Everyone else that I can see times for are doing 1:59s easily in race trim and 1:57s PBs even in slower cars. Stan Daam is doing those times in the MP4 which I got kicked out of because of Marty. I tried the MP4 and I was a bit faster in that in just a couple of laps. So sort of hoping it is the P4/5 but probably me being slow around here?
I need to do a bit more practice yet, but I have dropped into the low 1.59s.  Likely to get a little bit quicker but not a whole heap.  Trying to work out hi versus low down force options....!!  Monza went well with low down force and soft suspension to maintain some mechanical grip . . so that might be the way.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 16, 2014, 12:14:45 PM
You do the time, you pay the crime.
Or something like that...
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bird on December 16, 2014, 12:56:24 PM
Freezer, have you managed any laps in the P4/5 yet? What times are you getting? I'm not breaking 2:00 and mostly doing 2:02s in race trim. Everyone else that I can see times for are doing 1:59s easily in race trim and 1:57s PBs even in slower cars. Stan Daam is doing those times in the MP4 which I got kicked out of because of Marty. I tried the MP4 and I was a bit faster in that in just a couple of laps. So sort of hoping it is the P4/5 but probably me being slow around here?
I need to do a bit more practice yet, but I have dropped into the low 1.59s.  Likely to get a little bit quicker but not a whole heap.  Trying to work out hi versus low down force options....!!  Monza went well with low down force and soft suspension to maintain some mechanical grip . . so that might be the way.
This track is much more twisty - while it has two straights that can use the speed, it's much MUCH slower track (check the distance/laptime values, it gives you the 'speed' of the track, that's really an average speed / lap )

I reckon quite a bit more wing is needed.   It's also better for a safer setup to have more wing.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 16, 2014, 02:10:41 PM
Freezer, have you managed any laps in the P4/5 yet? What times are you getting? I'm not breaking 2:00 and mostly doing 2:02s in race trim. Everyone else that I can see times for are doing 1:59s easily in race trim and 1:57s PBs even in slower cars. Stan Daam is doing those times in the MP4 which I got kicked out of because of Marty. I tried the MP4 and I was a bit faster in that in just a couple of laps. So sort of hoping it is the P4/5 but probably me being slow around here?
I need to do a bit more practice yet, but I have dropped into the low 1.59s.  Likely to get a little bit quicker but not a whole heap.  Trying to work out hi versus low down force options....!!  Monza went well with low down force and soft suspension to maintain some mechanical grip . . so that might be the way.
This track is much more twisty - while it has two straights that can use the speed, it's much MUCH slower track (check the distance/laptime values, it gives you the 'speed' of the track, that's really an average speed / lap )

I reckon quite a bit more wing is needed.   It's also better for a safer setup to have more wing.

You can go both ways in most cars, go too low aero and you lose exit speed so you probably wont be close enough to the car ahead to get past in the straight anyway. Lap time wise you can get similar times with fairly different setups but with such short straights a little more aero may make it easier to pass by getting in close on exit and gaining a speed boost with the draft. Quite a few places to make a move under braking that are also much safer then t1 or the chicane.  ;D
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 16, 2014, 03:35:28 PM
In terms of the general track layout it's definitely more of a long turn grip track, so sloppy suspension + front end mid corner grip.  Usually this means setting the front up for as much grip as you can and then going as low as you can for the rear.  So the rear is compromised for the front, as opposed to somewhere like the last race where the front is compromised for the rear (and not just because of the long straights at Monza, but the 90 degree corners also where turn in is more important than mid-corner grip).

Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bird on December 16, 2014, 04:42:48 PM
Now that's quality info, Guy, keep it coming!
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 16, 2014, 04:56:11 PM
The only other thing I'd point out, and this is in general, is that more rear end grip = worse cornering ability.  More rear grip will make the car more stable, but generally will reduce the cornering capability of the car.  The less rear grip you have the car will generally want to pivot more on the front end of the car, which results in a better/tighter turning radius but as a result the back is trying to "swing around" more which can result in oversteer.

That's why some of the faster setups are difficult to drive and you will notice less rear wing, less rear negative camber and stiffer suspension and dampers in the rear compared to the front.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 16, 2014, 06:18:47 PM
Good setup thoughts and tips, Guybrush.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 16, 2014, 06:29:51 PM
Server's up.

In the long race, the track will take a little longer to reach 100% grip (7 or 8 laps).
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bird on December 16, 2014, 10:36:42 PM
Big apologies to GW for that shunt, it was a really stupid mistake (not the only one that race!).
I have very poorly anticipated the extra brake-distance needed due to the speed gained from hiding behind Wally's big metal plus the lessened grip. 
I hope I didn't completely ruin your race!

I have made a mistake on L1 too, going into T1 but that time I came through clean, even if a bit shaken. Then got a bit side swept by someone going towards T2 but that was no biggie.     It was an eventful race.

But apart from that, I had a ripper of a race trying to work my way back up the field!
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 17, 2014, 07:14:08 PM
Here is a video showing the Wally train for the last 3 laps of race 2, I also noticed using Guybrush's dummy setup didn't help me trying to get past Wally. The top speed on that was 233kmh where as the one he used on the nite was getting 243kmh according to RSR.  ;)

The video should be viewable in 1080p/60 once its finished encoding.

[youtube]DiDUHF1h5II[/youtube]
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Guybrush Threepwood on December 17, 2014, 08:33:56 PM
Surprised you didn't lengthen the gears for the race Marty... although you were only just hitting the limiter.

I found the shorter gears better for hot-lapping, but ran my race setup during qual.  During practice I ran my qual setup (the one you were using) and was another couple of tenths quicker.

I think the only things I changed for the race were longer gears and brake bias.

That video looked great btw.  You should post it on the AC forums as a reason why ballast/handicap is good.  In fact the data for those races is a good reason - take out some outlying data and the qualifying field was only a couple of second apart.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Wally on December 17, 2014, 09:03:56 PM
Great stuff, Marty. I didn't realise there was such a train behind my fat ol' Merc!
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: StanDaam on December 17, 2014, 09:29:10 PM
Awesome video Marty!!  :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Bruce on December 18, 2014, 08:03:42 AM
Stunning video  marty.
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: Matthew111 on December 18, 2014, 07:42:47 PM
That was a quality replay!
Title: Re: S4R5: Nurburgring Race Chat
Post by: marty on December 18, 2014, 10:19:19 PM
Thanks guys but I really didn't do much other then save the replay, record it then upload it. Had some good drivers to help fill the frame and a real nice looking sim to show itself off a little.  ;D
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