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Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Australian Assetto Corsa League, Tuesday nights => Topic started by: Wally on April 11, 2017, 10:49:39 PM
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Here's an excerpt from some real life blue flag rules (my bolding). All interpretations of the blue flag follow this roughly.
If you are shown the blue flag, move off the racing line as soon as possible within reason and make no erratic moves. Pay attention to your mirrors to determine which side the car will pass you. Once the following car is close, slow your speed enough to allow them a safe pass around your car. Do not accelerate until you are sure the following car has past and is clear.
You should aim to let a lapping car past on the next straight, by announcing on TeamSpeak "Go left" or "Go right" and lifting off the throttle. There should be plenty of room to let a lapping car safely past without surprising anyone. There's no need to go extra wide on a corner, or go off track, as that might cause accidents. Just wait until the very next straight (often no more than half a lap away).
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straight from the FIA regulations:
During the race: The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped, if the driver does not seem to be making full use of his rear-view mirrors. When shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.
regulations attached.. page 12 right hand top
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...and in the case of tonight's VIR race, here are two examples of the perfect places (looking from Marty's car) for Seanus to lift off the throttle and let Marty and Grat pass; first shot is the back straight, second shot is the main straight. There's plenty of time and space to allow a safe pass.
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I have checked a number of different sources and meanings of "Blue flags" and they all say the same thing.
A car being shown the Blue flag must GIVE WAY to the faster car at the earliest, safest available opportunity
You don't race the leader
You don't stay on the line
The leader does NOT have to go around you.
The leader/lapping car has right of way ON THE RACING LINE.
Having said that, the lapped car must exercise caution at all times and safely give way. Sometimes you can not do it until after a chicane or sweeping corners so it pays to voice out on TS and communicate when and where to pass.
If there is no communication - Always keep the racing line clear for the lapping car.
There is an exception that I have often come across and that's when the lapping car is coming up to two cars fighting for position. By fighting for position, I mean cars that are side-by-side or bumper to bumper on the same lap. The leader should exercise caution, communicate and pass safely when the opportunity comes.
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...First shot is the back straight; plenty of time and room to ease off and move to one side. Second shot is the main straight - likewise plenty of time and room for a safe pass.
These two examples are moot, and please make it so, as they where during/after I had popped my cork and I was being at best distracted or at worst belligerent.
Yep, fair enough. I'm really pointing out that they are good examples of the perfect places to let a lapping car past.
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I think the lapping car moving early down a straight or into a corner to one side should be enough indication to a car being shown blue flags. We don't really need to flood teamspeak and in real racing other drivers don't communicate to each other so clearly showing intended line should be more then enough to get the point across. If the lead car has moved to one side early on a straight then this should mean that you can take the other side but simply dont defend on entry, its not a late braking battle when your being lapped just let the other car have the line they chose and then continue with your own race with minimal time lost.
If the lead car is directly behind the car then this means they arent intending to pass at this moment, the car getting blue flags should not brake or lift entering a straight and this should be avoided as much as possible unless the other car is clearly alongside already and no other car is around, this will lose the car shown blue flags much more time as they will be slow down the entire next straight. That means its in their best interest to concede the position at the end of the straight rather where both cars lose the least amount of time.
...First shot is the back straight; plenty of time and room to ease off and move to one side. Second shot is the main straight - likewise plenty of time and room for a safe pass.
These two examples are moot, and please make it so, as they where during/after I had popped my cork and I was being at best distracted or at worst belligerent.
I dont know how you popped your cork as I said nothing for the first half a lap, once I saw blue flags arent being respected I simply said "blue flags". I never touched your car and I also flashed the lights once on the next straight to try and get the point across but I dont see how those 2 actions made you get so upset.
Later on after the collision with Grat I could see how you would get more upset and there was more discussion, but again it wasnt my fault neither was your spin the second time I was lapping you when I said nothing and pretty much expected the same deal.
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I think how I summed it up in the first post is best. For maximum safety, wait until the next straight to move off the line and lift off the throttle a little to make it easier for the passing car. Just drive your normal line through corners/twisty sections, otherwise one or both cars risks coming off worse.
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The "move off the line" method can be more dangerous IMO. It's nice and if it's understood by everyone then it's great - however it requires great caution.
I have always preferred the "keep your line" method, where (like Marty wrote above) the lapper (leader, car behind) indicates that they'd like to pass by moving off the line. At that point the slower car in front lifts the throttle and maybe takes a bit wider line into the next corner - safe pass done and everyone understands clearly what's to do.
Reason 1: the fast car will have a lot more car control. If the slow car needs to change lines it's more likely to lead to an accident. (we're not all pros here)
Reason 2: car in front has less visibility to asses the situation
Reason 3: imagine a shorter straight is coming up. Slower car does not move instantly off the line, lead car decides to overtake; at that point slower car realises he should be off the line...bang.
my 2c.
p.s.
On track days, what the method for overtaking is; (safe as it can be)
1) rear - faster - car indicates willingness to overtake by moving off the line
2) (or) front car points to the direction to overtake (we could replace this with TS)
3) front car lifts off the throttle for a safe overtake
Notice that the front car is never meant to leave the line. He can't see too well behind, so it's safer if the rear car does all the maneuvering.
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The thing is it shouldnt be a real big issue, people shouldnt get scared when shown a blue flag. Simply holding their line and letting the lead car choose a side and simply let not to defend into the next corner. If your in a dodgy section of track and hold them up for a few corners its no issue. You just shouldnt try to make it hard for them on purpose as ypunarent racimg for position and should do your best to avoid holding cars up under blue flags but dont need to lose excessive time yourself.
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Whatever we do, I'd like to see yielding on straights only. Attempting surprising lifts or passes in corners is just a recipe for disaster.
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Whatever we do, I'd like to see yielding on straights only. Attempting surprising lifts or passes in corners is just a recipe for disaster.
It should never be a surprise thats why the lead car should clearly show where they intend to go and very early. This still doesnt mean the car will always concede at the end of the straight but if they hold the other line and simply leave room its an easy pass with the least time lost for both cars.
If the car ahead doesnt leave room then the lapping car simpy needs to wait for the next chance, if the car showing blue flags doesnt show any intent to concede the spot then the lapped car will be forced to make a sketchy race pass on a slower car they shouldnt have to be racing. Thats what should be avoided with any blue flag rule and why its normally put in place.
Cars lifting massively on exits or braking on straights is very unpredictable and if anyone is following them they will likely rear end them in a very silly pointless crash. Doing the passes in the late part of the straight or into the next corner with no defence from the car showing blue flags seems most predictable and safe to me. Only in qualy should a car on an outlap get completly off the racing line and slow down where safe to not cause any delay to cars behind on a hotlap.
I have to say in all the seasons here its the first time someone has tried to race for position under blue flags for over a lap so its realy not a big deal. The key is we just need a common rule to all be on the same page if blue flags apply and slower car needs to give up the place with no defence or we need to race them. As the rule is its the concede option that I always assumed it was. Seanus just didnt think he had to obey the blue flag as he had his stop already so it was just a basic misunderstanding more then anything else.
I think a mixed class season would be good to teach people how to both pass slower cars and let faster cars past without needing to both lose heaps of time on each pass. Its still up to the car behind to avoid any collision but the car ahead chooses if they will battle or not, no point battling when being lapped or if being past by a faster class car. Also best for the slower car to hold their line but this doesnt mean going for the apex when the car passing them is going for a pass that is not a dive bomb.
May need to find a lap at Nords with faster cars in traffic, how the drivers deal with it there is impressive.
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A mixed class season is definitely on the cards. The trial race we had was fun.
For the sake of having a written rule, take it as my first post :)
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Blue flag
This flag encourages a driver to move aside to allow faster traffic to pass.
A light blue flag, sometimes with a diagonal yellow, orange, or red stripe, informs a driver that a faster car is approaching and that the driver should move aside to allow one or more faster cars to pass. During a race, this would only be usually shown to a driver who is getting lapped but during practice or qualifying sessions, it could be shown to any driver. In most series, the blue flag is not mandatory—drivers obey it only as a courtesy to their fellow racers. As such, it is often referred to as the "courtesy flag". In other series, drivers get severely penalized for not yielding or for interfering with the leaders, including getting sent to the pits for the rest of the race. In Formula One, if the driver about to be lapped ignores three waved blue flags in a row, he is required to make a drive-through penalty. The blue flag may also be used to warn a driver that another car on the same lap is going to attempt to overtake them.
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Here's an excerpt from some real life blue flag rules (my bolding). All interpretations of the blue flag follow this roughly.
If you are shown the blue flag, move off the racing line as soon as possible within reason and make no erratic moves. Pay attention to your mirrors to determine which side the car will pass you. Once the following car is close, slow your speed enough to allow them a safe pass around your car. Do not accelerate until you are sure the following car has past and is clear.
You should aim to let a lapping car past on the next straight, by announcing on TeamSpeak "Go left" or "Go right" and lifting off the throttle. There should be plenty of room to let a lapping car safely past without surprising anyone. There's no need to go extra wide on a corner, or go off track, as that might cause accidents. Just wait until the very next straight (often no more than half a lap away).
If lots of people are talking on teamspeak about this then many may not recognize who it is they are speaking to, its quite likely more then one blue flag pass is happening at the same time with different cars and not everyone is familiar with everyone's voice. The lead car should generally try to hold their line and only slow at the end of the straight earlier if they know there is nobody on the same line behind them. Slowing early should only happen if the following car is not directly behind them and should never be done on the racing line at the exit of a corner, if more then one car is lapping them close together then slowing mid straight the second car in line may not see them going slow on track and move out to pass the car ahead of them then run into the back of the slower car.
Its kind of like all the people saying exiting pits, I dont think this needs to be said there is a pit exit line for a reason. People exiting should never cross this and anyone racing if they are going to cross this line need to be aware there may be a slow moving car there. Using mirrors and basic traffic awareness should just deal with this and no need to tell people that your exiting as they will see you and as long as you exit safely and dont come across the track there should be no issue.
Its the same with blue flags, by indicating intent early if your the lapping car it should be enough for the car under blue flags to see what they are intending to do. Its not like if your 4 seconds behind you can pull to the inside and the car being lapped needs to stop at the corner or you can dive bomb them. The lapping car needs to also give the car ahead a chance of not losing that much time themselves so if both help each other out there should be minimal impact to either cars pace under blue flags.
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We have very little problems with lapped traffic in the XGN races.
Yes on occasion hiccups do occur but that will happen even with the strictest rules and formalized procedures. So just continue as we've always done. ;D
(That's my 1c, I'm too cheap for 2c)
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More communication never hurts.
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More communication never hurts.
It doesnt but too much chatter gets distracting to others on track, as it did after the contact and why on track all I said prior to that was blue flag.
If people want to completely get out of the way then going completely off the racing line mid straight and backing off if safe is an option as you would do in qualy on an outlap. Just that is going to cost even more time to the guy being lapped so its not the best option for them as they are there to race too, if there are a few cars approaching closely then it is sometimes a good option and communication is needed here so all are aware of a slower car off line.
We have very little problems with lapped traffic in the XGN races.
Yes on occasion hiccups do occur but that will happen even with the strictest rules and formalized procedures. So just continue as we've always done. ;D
(That's my 1c, I'm too cheap for 2c)
It has never been a big issue and I mostly see people hurting themselves and panicking a bit too much under blue flags which is even worse for the cars lapping them as they have really no idea what the car ahead is about to do.
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May need to find a lap at Nords with faster cars in traffic, how the drivers deal with it there is impressive.
It's not impressive, it's common sense. Something most people here in Australia don't have when it comes to racing. I watch quite a lot of those videos by EMS Nordschliefe TV and majority of the time, the slower guys indicate the side they will move over to (normally off the racing line) when it is safe to do so. It's also amazing to see how little car control people have when they loose it around some corners due to either too much speed, over correcting or just plain stupidity on a wet track.
Considering this is a simulation and we have voice communication as well as in-built driving apps to help increase a drivers awareness (heli-corsa for example), there shouldn't be much excuse to not know who is around your car. Heli-Corsa even shows Red/Blue cars for lapping cars, While white dots are cars on the current lap as you are.
On the topic of Blue flags and how long you have to obey it, I think 1 lap is far more than enough. I know some tracks are hard to pass, but somewhere along the circuit is going to be safe to let a lapping car through. After that, give a penalty.
reading some of you guys are saying it's safer for the slow car to stay on the race line IMO isn't any better. The lapped car should never be racing the leader. If you're being lapped, you're not really going to win are you? Might as well just communicate, merge off the line *when it's safe* and let him through. The race leader/Lapping cars shouldn't have to have their position compromised because they have to go around a lapped car holding the line.
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reading some of you guys are saying it's safer for the slow car to stay on the race line IMO isn't any better. The lapped car should never be racing the leader. If you're being lapped, you're not really going to win are you? Might as well just communicate, merge off the line *when it's safe* and let him through. The race leader/Lapping cars shouldn't have to have their position compromised because they have to go around a lapped car holding the line.
I think in qualy that is the case but in a race most people I see go off line do some rather bizarre unpredictable stuff which just gives the lapping car little idea of what they are doing. I dont mind if I have to go offline to pass a lapped car as long as they then dont defend into the corner or at least not multiple corners in a row, In races there are times you will simply get held up and it happens to all. You win some and you lose some its kind of the way it goes but in qualy there is no good reason to hold anyone up if your not on a hotlap yourself so going well offline to leave the car on a lap his full line is pretty much required there.
At least in qualy I havent had many issues with people on outlaps here but if you catch another car on a lap then its just bad luck and you need to find a safe way past or back off and find space if possible.
I tried to find a video I saw a while back from the Nords 24hr race in the early laps, the gt3 cars with maybe 6 or 7 very close getting through the slow traffic from the end of lap 1 and if you see that you will be impressed. However at Nords slower cars getting in the way and not using mirrors or causing collisions get black flagged and the driver can lose his Nords race license on the spot and needs to be replaced. I think last year in the 24hr at least 2 drivers had this happen ordered to the stewards office mid race after a black flag and stripped of their licenses.
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Marty has said it pretty well, I don't think you're comparing apples to apples, unFk.
And it does create confusion and unpredictability if ppl start going off the racing line. Been there, tried that (many years ago in other sims); not good.
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Anyone that in a race wants to get completely out of the way qualy style then they need to do it in a predictable manner, probably move over early but well after corner exit and only if the car following isn't very close to them at this point. They then need to move across the road as far off line as possible and once they see the following car hasn't followed them and no other cars are nearby should lift off or stay there and lift off much sooner before the corner giving the lapping car his full line. This I think is best practice in qualifying but as I said in a race its not ideal for any car to be traveling well off pace down a straight.
First it loses them much more time then needed but also if there are more cars coming they will need to completely stay out of the way until they exit the next corner, a pack of cars racing close will be changing lanes to pass each other down straights and a slower car there can easily cause a big crash easily avoided by trying to limit slower cars on track. If AC had a white flag indicating slow car on track it would help somewhat but in most cases this causes more problems then it serves in MP racing.
This crash is a good example of the problem with slow cars on track in heavy traffic, the car is very slow due to a failure but to some extent cars going 20-50kmh slower then normal on a straight can easily cause this to happen.
[youtube]GQ-zNzipmpE[/youtube]
Its still up to all drivers to try and be as aware of everyone as possible, the same situation can happen when someone is re entering the track or exiting pits. A poor getaway off the line or someone grabbing the wrong gear shifter like me in one of the practice starts at Monza. But I think in general forcing cars to be slower mid straights to allow for lapping cars just causes more issues then it solves, at times it may be the best option but then if someone chooses to go slower down a straight they need to communicate this on teamspeak if there are a few cars about to lap them. 1 on 1 lapping situations I don't see much reason for anyone to need to do this but its only my view and others may see it differently.