Xtreme Gaming Network
Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Topic started by: Guybrush Threepwood on October 26, 2014, 06:10:40 PM
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I had a sneaking suspicion that there was an imposed speed deficit when not using a H-shifter with the latest update. That is with cars that normally have a stick shift.
Marty uses a H-shifter and I use paddle shift. I noticed that he was pulling a large gap on the straights with the Lotus at Imola. The same thing was happening in the BMW E30 DTM's at Nurburgring National just now.
There was a good 20 meters difference from when we were both exiting the corner at the same speed to the end of the straight.
It would be good if someone could test this, I'll also ask in the forums.
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Why dont you try the h shifter and see, though its not a bad idea if thats the case. Surely not using a shifter shouldnt be faster then using one. Same as TC on is much slower then tc off but I noticed on rsr your laptime in the elise had tc on. This is more likely what slowed you down as I felt how much slower it was when I exited pits still running it until I noticed it was on and switched it off. The race in DTM's I changed the gearing from qualy to race and was much quicker on hards then I was on softs in the qualy.
The shifter is obviously faster off the line if used properly as I have had some much better starts over guys I know arent using it. But you are more likely to miss a gear and do engine damage. It may be time for more people to setup their shifters if they have them as its more fun and may be quicker if you can do it properly.
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The G27 H-shifter is a plastic piece of rubbish though. I've tried it a few times and just can't find a decent spot for it where it doesn't take up my desk space and allows me to use my computer.
I agree that it should be faster using a H-shifter but I'd like to know the exact disadvantage. It should only be a tenth or two to keep thinks fair. I think at the moment it's quite large, as even in the race I had TC off in the Elise and there was a huge speed difference.
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There can be more to it then just shifter I do tend to run quite a different setup to you with much less rear camber. This will give much better acceleration out of slow corners but hurts more getting on throttle while still turning. In the Elise there isnt much you can do setup wise but using less camber and higher tyre pressures does give more speed. I am pretty sure both of those were quite different in our setups.
I dont know if the g27 shifter is much worse then the g25 one I am using, it has changed a bit as I dont think the g27 can be switched between h pattern and sequential modes. Id be surprised if they made it much worse in a newer model. In races I need to be less agressive on shifts as its very easy to miss a gear blowing an entry or exit completly when doing so. Maybe gaining a couple tenths with the shifter can easily blow a second on a mis shift, add 100% damage and you really need to shift properly to avoid damaging the gearbox too.
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A bit of testing going on in the AC forums and the general consensus is that H shifter is worth around half a tenth per shift. If you are going up hill, more (eg Imola). So you could almost allow around a second for the H shifter, which is pretty much what I thought.
I did some tests with the Lotus Elise going from the hair-pin up the hill to the left hander and with H-shifter gave me an average speed 5km/h more with H shifter. That was a rolling start and 3 gear changes.
So there is more speed to be had Dick!
BTW, it was a PITA setting my shifter up again! A few reasons why I won't use one:
* I have no-where to put my keyboard.
* I'm trying not to use my left leg for anything now due to knee tendinitis.
* Most of all because I find it easier using paddles. If it weren't for my knee I'd get used to it, but that's not likely going to happen now.
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* I'm trying not to use my left leg for anything now due to knee tendinitis.
Your left knee swears uncontrollably??? sure, whatever...
Yeah thought the H-Haxx0rs might be getting a few 10ths here and there...
I've thought about using the H-shifter, at least for hotkeys.
the G27 shifter is such a toy though. Now, we know Marty loves his and is going to marry it one day. but I struggle to find gears with it. I mess around with the cobra and H shifter from time to time. My knee feels fine btw.
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* Most of all because I find it easier using paddles. If it weren't for my knee I'd get used to it, but that's not likely going to happen now.
That is the main point, its much easier to drive with paddles and why many people choose them over the shifter. They shouldn't allow you to get the perfect shift with paddles every time and if damage is fully turned on you also need much more care with the shifter.
I find it much more challenging to drive with the shifter and used it even when I was pretty bad at it in game and it was costing me large chunks of time. It still is the main reason I make errors when missing a gear the fact that I may gain time on a perfect shift over someone using the easier option isnt a bad thing. Your still going to need to work harder and be pretty good with the shifter and footwork to actually get any advantage out of it over a full race.
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Hm...I've been putting off trying to use the shifter, but I might just go back and install it. Altho I've a sneaking suspicion that I'd be far worse off with it, at least in the first [insert large amount of time here].
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BenC always found the shifter/clutch faster but I found it the same. I haven't tried comparing with recent versions though. I did try driving the x-bow with a shifter when 1.0-rc first came out and destroyed the gearbox in about 2 laps. They seem to have tightened up the timing a bit because I was grinding gears all over the place.
In the Lada mod you get a massive speed boost when shifting to 4th gear with a shifter. It seems to sit at high revs for a second or so before dropping down. Wonder if something like that is going on with all shifts to some degree.
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It would be pretty damn easy to test this on drag races, wouldn't it?
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I really dont see much of an issue but have always used the shifter when I can, not that big a deal if I am not the quickest on track either which I rarely am. But would someone left foot braking and paddle shifting a manual car not be an advantage over using both feet on each pedal at some time and using the shifter if there was no extra shift delay.
If you were to jump in the real car you wouldnt have the option of using paddles and would simply need to deal with what it gives you. At least Kunos lets you drive it without a shifter but only fair enough they add some delay so as not to disadvantage those driving the car as its meant to be driven.
I also find it quite funny people that really like the f40 but then drive it with a paddle shifter when they have access to a H-shifter aka Bird and Guybrush. For me it would be a completely different car driven that way and using the shifter is part of the fun of driving that thing for me.
Also id rather have 100% damage on for the league races but this isn't the favored option for some and makes using the shifter quite a bit easier then it should be I think.
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Each to his own.
Marty, don't forget, this is a league for fun, not for 100% painful realism. If it was you'd have the steering column between your legs in the formula ford, and the shifter would be a tiny stick which you can only operate with fingers. Also hitting a wall would be very painful. And so on.
Let's have fun ;)
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Each to his own.
Marty, don't forget, this is a league for fun, not for 100% painful realism. If it was you'd have the steering column between your legs in the formula ford, and the shifter would be a tiny stick which you can only operate with fingers. Also hitting a wall would be very painful. And so on.
Let's have fun ;)
Im not the one that brought up the topic though, Im just saying it makes a shifter easier with damage off and would rather have it on even if it favours me to have it off. Ive never driven paddles on shifter cars and so dont use a shifter just because its faster or complain when it may be slower not to use it and choose not to. ;)
There are obviously limitations to it but everyone knows its much easier not to use a shifter, clutch and heal toe so I dont think you should also be handicapped for using these properly in cars that have a shifter. Being at a slight disadvantage taking the easy option is only fair IMHO and a large majority of people have access to a shifter or could buy one fairly cheaply compared to all the rest of their gear if they wanted to use one.
Guy may have a medical reason (Id still like to see a note from his mum or Doctor) not to use it but if someone can left foot brake then they should also be able to use a clutch and right foot brake. If they choose not to then tough luck if it may be a little slower not using a shifter, but he is quick enough anyway that it really shouldn't bother him so much when his team mate finally outpaces him in one race nite by a slight margin.
Here are the lap times for qualy and best race from the Imola round between me with shifter and guy paddling.
Race 1 Imola Qualy
Marty [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:07:471
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:07:576
Best race lap
Marty [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:06:403
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:07:013
Race 2 Qualy
Marty [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:05:640
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:06:281
Marty [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:06:350
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:06:571
Race 3 Qualy
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:05:850
Marty [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:06:503
Best Race lap
Marty [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:05:987
Guybrush Threepwood [Achilles Heels] lotus_elise_sc 2:06:758
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It would be pretty damn easy to test this on drag races, wouldn't it?
Yes, I did a test with the F40 over 1000 meters and it was on average 1.6 - 2 tenths faster using H-shifter. That is 3 shifts. No doubt exacerbated slightly by that car having a turbo and the H-shifter allowing the revs to remain high and the turbo to not lose as much of it's spool - if that is the right terminology.
I also did some speed tests with the Elise and E30 and on average the H shifter gave an additional 5 - 6 km/h boost at a single point around 3/4 of the top speed of the cars.
If I used my left foot for braking I would use it for clutch and right foot for brake but currently I'm having to use right foot for both. Normally I am a left foot braker though - even in real life unless driving a manual.
At least we know, or have some idea of, the difference now between H and paddle shift. It certainly wasn't as big of a factor before RC 1.0 though.
My query now is how this applies to sequential shifters... I believe the likes of the Formula Abarth are sequential? Not sure what other shifters are sequential, I know the G27 isn't though.
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It may be quicker on upshifts but is much trickier on downshifts. For example most brake points at Imola are very tricky getting the car stopped and shifting down before the corners. When driving cars with paddles its much easier then any car with a manual shifter. You cant just consider the gains in a drag strip as a race is very different to that run a 10 lap race at full pace in the f40 or even elise at Imola or spa. See how many shifts you miss and if you are quicker then with paddles over the entire distance.
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You don't have to heel-toe with the shifter either.
I left foot brake and throttle-blip on downshifts, I get most. :P
( can't turn my right foot inwards)
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You don't have to heel-toe with the shifter either.
I left foot brake and throttle-blip on downshifts, I get most. :P
( can't turn my right foot inwards)
How do you use the clutch?
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I don't.
The clutch is for starts and upshifts only. ;)
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I don't.
The clutch is for starts and upshifts only. ;)
I didn't think it went into gear without the clutch when downshifting? Interesting.
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You should do a test Marty and see what your best time at Imola in the Elise SC with paddles is and do a side-by-side vid of your hotlap with and without paddles to see the difference.
You'd be one of the few that could test it properly.
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You should do a test Marty and see what your best time at Imola in the Elise SC with paddles is and do a side-by-side vid of your hotlap with and without paddles to see the difference.
You'd be one of the few that could test it properly.
Mary will throw the test results. He hates us for haxing with our paddles... :) He loves his H-shifter and is going to marry it as soon as 1.0 drops.
Marty may H-shift but he is not hard-core Like Sally. He SIMs-out to the max* and right hand shifts. That's dedicated.
How about you other H-shifter guys?
*under review for trademarking.
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My chair is built so the shifter is to my left..not sure how that will play out with the rift when I think all in game cars are left hand drive. The few times I've tried VR it can be a bit disconcerting when things aren't where you think they should be (tables.... legs, hands).
I'd say paddles are quicker when you are slower - once you can master heel-toe and proper rev matching the H-shifter gives a slight advantage. Fair enough, I think.
Full damage would be fun too but would definitely result in a spread out field as everybody behind Marty and GB limps home to the pits after the inevitable 1st corner blitz.
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You should do a test Marty and see what your best time at Imola in the Elise SC with paddles is and do a side-by-side vid of your hotlap with and without paddles to see the difference.
You'd be one of the few that could test it properly.
Marty will throw the test results. He hates us for haxing with our paddles... :) He loves his H-shifter and is going to marry it as soon as 1.0 drops.
Marty may H-shift but he is not hard-core Like Sally. He SIMs-out to the max* and right hand shifts. That's dedicated.
How about you other H-shifter guys?
*under review for trademarking.
I could do that just like Dick has crazy pace in practice for a race but then backs off to ensure he stays in his fast lotus. I dont really care if its faster or slower with the shifter I just prefer using a shifter in real cars and in sims if I get the option. Was quite amazed last round Dick as I was never going to get by you in practice and I was on the limit just as I was in each session, however you never got ahead of me after the practice session which was the biggest surprise of the round to me. ;)
To do a test with shifter and without does it do auto blip for you when you disable the shifter, do you paddlers need to enable auto clutch or how does that work. As I have always just left the shifter on then drive the car with whichever method it has.
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I don't.
The clutch is for starts and upshifts only. ;)
I didn't think it went into gear without the clutch when downshifting? Interesting.
It does if you rev match.
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You should do a test Marty and see what your best time at Imola in the Elise SC with paddles is and do a side-by-side vid of your hotlap with and without paddles to see the difference.
You'd be one of the few that could test it properly.
Mary will throw the test results. He hates us for haxing with our paddles... :) He loves his H-shifter and is going to marry it as soon as 1.0 drops.
Marty may H-shift but he is not hard-core Like Sally. He SIMs-out to the max* and right hand shifts. That's dedicated.
How about you other H-shifter guys?
*under review for trademarking.
I'm not sure who this "Sally" is... but should I be checking my room for hidden webcams? How did you know I right-hand shift?
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You have to blip yourself with paddles. Unless you turn auto-blip on.
Just gave the H shifter a go. Yesterday I spent a lot of time on Marty's server with the E30 DTM and Silverstone National and fluked a lap that I was never able to get close to again. I would have been a couple of tenths off at my best on every other try. That was my PB and a record in RSR.
Anyway, using the H shifter just then I beat it by almost half a second... on a couple occasions and in only 15 minutes of trying. And that's me without hardly any practice using shifter and certainly not getting the most out of it.
One thing I did notice is that using the H shifter the car was a lot smoother into corners and didn't want to step out as much. I found it better under brakes in terms of handling.
Anyway, time to ice the knee! But at least I have one record on RSR for now with the shifter!
BTW it was more fun with the shifter... I wish I was able to use one regularly.
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I like H shifting, when your H sifting there is more things to think about, more body mechanics going on and more things can go wrong. Paddle shifting your hands never leave the wheel, so there is a big advantage right there, easier to get into a rhythm. When you get someone that can master a H shifter, they are rewarded accordingly!!!!
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I don't.
The clutch is for starts and upshifts only. ;)
I didn't think it went into gear without the clutch when downshifting? Interesting.
It does if you rev match.
Is this normal for cars in real life? Every car IRL I've driven in any sort of anger I've always been taught to throttle blip and clutch. When I first started driving in my little Celica (I'm not a girl!) I used to change by double pumping the clutch from gear to neutral to gear.
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No idea. I've not been game to try in real life.
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No idea. I've not been game to try in real life.
No point having teeth if you don't clean em!
And you told us on TS that you right hand shift a few weeks ago... Well, I hope you where talking about H-shifting...
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You have to blip yourself with paddles. Unless you turn auto-blip on.
Just gave the H shifter a go. Yesterday I spent a lot of time on Marty's server with the E30 DTM and Silverstone National and fluked a lap that I was never able to get close to again. I would have been a couple of tenths off at my best on every other try. That was my PB and a record in RSR.
Anyway, using the H shifter just then I beat it by almost half a second... on a couple occasions and in only 15 minutes of trying. And that's me without hardly any practice using shifter and certainly not getting the most out of it.
One thing I did notice is that using the H shifter the car was a lot smoother into corners and didn't want to step out as much. I found it better under brakes in terms of handling.
Anyway, time to ice the knee! But at least I have one record on RSR for now with the shifter!
BTW it was more fun with the shifter... I wish I was able to use one regularly.
The server did have reduced grips levels and no ABS, I didnt bother running RSR on the server with grip at 96%. You quite likely ran laps with optimum grip and ABS which would make quite a difference along with the shifter.
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You have to blip yourself with paddles. Unless you turn auto-blip on.
Just gave the H shifter a go. Yesterday I spent a lot of time on Marty's server with the E30 DTM and Silverstone National and fluked a lap that I was never able to get close to again. I would have been a couple of tenths off at my best on every other try. That was my PB and a record in RSR.
Anyway, using the H shifter just then I beat it by almost half a second... on a couple occasions and in only 15 minutes of trying. And that's me without hardly any practice using shifter and certainly not getting the most out of it.
One thing I did notice is that using the H shifter the car was a lot smoother into corners and didn't want to step out as much. I found it better under brakes in terms of handling.
Anyway, time to ice the knee! But at least I have one record on RSR for now with the shifter!
BTW it was more fun with the shifter... I wish I was able to use one regularly.
The server did have reduced grips levels and no ABS, I didnt bother running RSR on the server with grip at 96%. You quite likely ran laps with optimum grip and ABS which would make quite a difference along with the shifter.
Does the E30 DTM have ABS standard? I'm not sure what my settings are, I think it's just factory - it would have been the same last night whatever it is. 96% grip would explain why the car kept sliding out. I might try later with just the paddle shifters and see what the difference is.
Most of the time I noticed was made up on the straights though when looking at my PB Delta. This could have been grip coming out of corners I guess.
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Well, with paddles in same settings and setup as before I'm again 0.4 to half a second off what I could do with the shifter. There is absolutely no doubt I was losing the time on the straights.
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Just we need... a faster Guybrush :)
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Well i'm converted!
Just raced for about an hour using the stinking H-shifter. Loved it. awesome fun. Felt a lot more in control. I'm using it all the time now. Clutch no worries. Right foot braking needs a bit of practice but the Exige has ABS so that is forgiving atm. Didn't break a gear-box on the practice server.
Put down a 1:46.711 240R Stage3
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Just we need... a faster Guybrush :)
Yep and there were a few of us in the practice server, I noticed Guy keep knocking his time down on RSR in a private session. ;D I got into the 44's but think he will be in the 43's soon.
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Took a second off my PB from yesterday with the H shifter.
My recommendation... Use a H shifter
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Hasn't this been confirmed by the devs? Sure I read it.
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Wonder if this might be quicker for the aliens, but for the average joe, averaged over 10-20 laps, with a few mis-shifts throw in, the old paddles still might be quicker?
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Wonder if this might be quicker for the aliens, but for the average joe, averaged over 10-20 laps, with a few mis-shifts throw in, the old paddles still might be quicker?
I think it effects some cars differently and there is definatly more chance of error so if there is a slight gain it may make up for that. Also the gain will onky be for guys that are good with a shifter, I still always use the shifter as its more fun and a bit more of a challenge. Im more glad its not a real disadvantage to paddlers in manual cars, if it encourages more "aliens" to drive the more challenging and enjoyable way then its good for them. I dont think its all about being the fastest more about immersion but really I think we need 100% damage also to encourage people to shift in a more realistic way. With damage off you really dont need any car on shifts but with it one you also need to be smoother and cleaner on all shifts to avoid damage to engine and gearbox.
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Well, I got down to a mid-44 at spa now, (no shifter) altho I've used a bit too much curb to be RsR-clean, but it was good for a friends' leaderboard lap :)
I reckon a 44 is quite doable if you nail the red corner. If you mess that up, though, then it's an uphill battle. I can easily lose .5 there, anytime.
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Just came across hlthis post by Aris in the official forums
If you use paddles on an H-shift manual car, the gearchange is slower than what you could achieved with a totally manual H-Shifter.
If you use autoclutch and blip on a car with a sequential box like the Z4 GT3, the clutch engages just a tiny bit slower than without the assists.
I did get into 43's at spa in the Cobra but noticed my teml was up as I tried the career mode earlier amd it must have chamged my temps. Silly as in the server it says temp 26c but still in RSR shows 30c so will need to try some laps tomorrow back to 26c. Hopefully one day the server will be able to control track temps as some cars temps couod have a second or more effect on lap times way more then using a shifter or not.