[Wally]

You make some good points. The real test, as always, would be to try it, if it's even possible.

[marty]

Best way to test would be get someones telemetry data that is a little off the pace, then get a quicker guy to find what grip levels they would need in order to match their lap times. This would be the handicap limit needed and then compare telemetry data between these 2 separate drivers. I can get data for myself running good grip and low grip but its better to compare against others.

If its done with an open mod car then we can also alter the weight of the car manually to provide ballast as a comparison between ballast and grip penalty.

[Bird]

I just don't like 100% grip.
In the real world a track is never at 100%.

In real world there's no such thing as 100%
There's only more grip and less grip.  But for the sake of simulation percentages are perfect.  You can simply imagine 100% means "grip is ok".

[Bacchulum]

But it's not "grip is OK", it's actually "grip is constant", which is the unrealistic bit.

[Bird]

But it's not "grip is OK", it's actually "grip is constant", which is the unrealistic bit.

That's entirely correct.   I'd be happy with a racing line grip, but full grip level simulation is a feature of a future sim I guess.

[marty]

But it's not "grip is OK", it's actually "grip is constant", which is the unrealistic bit.

Well the way AC does it its still a constant grip and consistant through the track, 100% would be maximum grip but in the real world there is no maximum grip it can always get grippier. Still it likely wont ever get as grippy as AC 100%, there are also plenty of variables that effect real world grip that are missing from AC. Most basic is changing track temps through the session and also some parts of track getting more direct sun then others so heating up more.

Then there would be a live track type system like in RF2 but even more advanced, not just the line other cars drive on but also cars going off track bringing dirt on some parts. I cant imagine how slippery public servers would get with the poor standards of driving, but atm servers cant even set ambient temps and there is no temp change from the start of the first session to the end of the last.

I agree with Bacchulum in that it really should never get to 100% grip and even if its close 97 to 99% with a very slow rate of improvement it would add a bit more then starting very low then climbing to 100% quickly and staying there for the end of all sessions and races. Ideally I think it should slowly build from practice to race keeping most of the grip gained during each session and at the end of the last race is the only time it should even get close to 100% but still not reach it.

[Bacchulum]

One final note before I let it go (if I can ).
The track can lose grip, even in perfect conditions.
Once the tarmac has taken all the rubber it can, the tyres start 'peeling' it off causing marbles (they don't come directly from the tyre surface).
So in theory, it should oscillate between 98% & 99%, if it ever gets that high.

But your point, Marty, about the amount of variables is all the more reason we should be aiming for a lower level.

[Wally]

We can certainly try it, you grip junkies. I just have to set the rate of increase much lower. It might be interesting for the long race next week. I can easily make it go from say 95 to reach 100 only a few laps from the end. But how realistic is this? I've never heard them complain in V8 Supercars, for instance, that the grip is really low and only getting good by the end of the race. They talk a lot more about tyre temp and condition rather than track grip.

[Wally]

From an F1 article:

“Early in a Grand Prix weekend a track surface usually has less grip than it will have after Formula One cars have been running on it. We call the track surface ‘green’ before it has rubbered-in,” explains Hamashima. “Some tracks get a lot of motorsport use and the change over a race weekend with these circuits is less extreme than at a track which is seldom used. When the track does not get a lot of use we see a more dramatic change of grip level provided by the track over the race weekend.”

No real clues there about how noticeable the grip change really is... but ”dramatic” makes it sound quite high. That's over the course of a race weekend though, not just one race.

Also:

Marcus Ericsson, car #9, chassis CT05-#01: "At the start of FP1 the grip level was just so low - the car was sliding around everywhere and I couldn't push anywhere around the track. I know the Hungaroring is always pretty green at the start of the weekend, but it was worse than I'd expected. You can go chasing the track when it's like this, trying to find setups that work, but we have to let the track come to us as the grip level improves overall, so for the next run we continued with the plan and were improving, little by little as the session went on.

From http://intelligentf1.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/canadian-grand-prix-the-role-of-track-evolution-in-hamiltons-victory

”Usually, I’m not big on the effects of track evolution during a Grand Prix. That’s because I can see the effects of the track rubbering in from the data in the opening laps (between 3 and 9 laps at most races) and then the behaviour is pretty much constant for the rest of the race. However, in Canada, the data shows big track evolution up to about half-distance.”

Implies grip changes stabilize rapidly.

[Wally]

From what I've been reading, a rubbering in up to 100% in the first third if the race seems to be realistic. That's what I'll set the next long race to. Up to now, the tracks reached 100% in about 2 or 3 laps.

[marty]

I think F1 has more rubbering in then any other series, the drivers even complain if there are cars running very different compounds in the support races taking away some grip. Tracks like Melbourne do get quickest at the end of the race but even in the last qualy run they get lots of gain and you hear commentators say it will likely be last across the line that gets the best track.

In V8's they dont shed anywhere near as much rubber their tyres last more then 6 to 10 laps which is about all they get out of super softs in qualy and they are already fairly spent after 3 or 4. GT cars run very hard tyres which can last a full fuel run or even 2 with limited sets for the entire weekend. So these tyres wont be rubbering the track in as much as they are cleaning it and also why you wont see as many marbles as in a f1 race.

I think GT cars on permanent circuits used most weekends there wouldn't be a huge gain from qualy to end of race but on a street track things would be quite different. I dont think they start as green as they do in our practice but they may only gain 2% all weekend but grip changes quite a bit with time of day and weather. We cant set temps in a server but I think at least now everyone gets the same 26c in MP where in earlier builds whatever you set in SP mode you also got in MP,