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Simulation Racing Leagues => Assetto Corsa => Australian Assetto Corsa League, Tuesday nights => Topic started by: Wally on May 29, 2016, 12:43:40 PM

Title: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on May 29, 2016, 12:43:40 PM
The RSR rank now includes the Jap Pack cars. Here are the stats I've gleaned from the top 5% of rank times across a variety of tracks:


Mazda RX-7 Spirit R,               0.36,     151   
Nissan 370z Nismo,                 1.25,     245   
Mazda MX5 Cup,                     0.03,     785
 
BMW Z4 E89 Drift,                  1.57,     4     
Lotus Elise SC Step2,              1.73,     11   
BMW Z4 E89 Step1,                  0.37,     17   
Toyota Supra MKIV,                 0.23,     224   
Nissan Skyline GTR R34 V-Spec,     0.46,     196



The first number is the gap to the previous car; the second number is the number of laps that have been looked at - a lot of laps already.

It looks like the Mazda MX5 Cup might be worth throwing into the mix.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Rolz on May 29, 2016, 02:02:07 PM
the epic late breaking you can do in the MX5 is cool and should give it a chance against the top speed cars in a small track
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: marty on May 29, 2016, 04:17:07 PM
I think the mx5 cup is too different and would be quite painful in traffic and just cause issues.

Here isthe comparison between rx7 and mx5 cup at Nurburg sprint.

http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapdetails?lapid=64458#

Here is just the speed comparison graph showing how different they are.

The other thing is I still wouldnt use rsr data simple fact I ran about 6 laps using rsr in 2 cars and both are records by 1.3 seconds or so. On my servers there have been way more laps that are also much close and running at lower grip levels.

Unless RSR is used by more people it really is only a very rough estimate of cars potential. Putting a combo on a server getting way more laps in the same conditions shows the cars potential better then rsr does these days.

Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Rolz on May 29, 2016, 04:36:00 PM
I was talking about little tracks like Modena... my PB (97% grip) was only .01 off Marty in RX7, but a 1:00 is easly doable in the hands of a good driver.

Even Nurburg sprint is too big a track for the MX5.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: marty on May 29, 2016, 05:03:07 PM
Possibly modena would be ok for it but the cars get their laptime so differently on very different tyres I really dont think theyd mix that well in a race even if getting identical laptimes.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Rolz on May 29, 2016, 05:18:40 PM
Yeah agreed, track list will really decide if MX5 is worth including, anything with longer straights than Modena it would be out against the others.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on May 29, 2016, 05:25:53 PM
I think the mx5 cup is too different and would be quite painful in traffic and just cause issues.

Here isthe comparison between rx7 and mx5 cup at Nurburg sprint.

http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapdetails?lapid=64458# (http://52.62.170.191:50041/lapdetails?lapid=64458#)

Here is just the speed comparison graph showing how different they are.

The other thing is I still wouldnt use rsr data simple fact I ran about 6 laps using rsr in 2 cars and both are records by 1.3 seconds or so. On my servers there have been way more laps that are also much close and running at lower grip levels.

Unless RSR is used by more people it really is only a very rough estimate of cars potential. Putting a combo on a server getting way more laps in the same conditions shows the cars potential better then rsr does these days.

Marty, I know you don't like RSR data, but this is a total of 1,601 laps across a variety of tracks, not just one track, and that's just the top 5% of times. That's quite representative of Mr. Joe ReasonableDriver, who makes up the majority of our league. 785 laps have been done in the MX5 alone. It's all about giving people a reasonably close set of cars to choose from. Some have strengths; some have weaknesses - that's all part of the gamble, or the fun if you like, of choosing a car, and remember you can always swap cars mid-season. How will the Slicks of the MX5 hold up compared to the Semislicks of the other cars? How will the MX5 cope in traffic with a reverse grid? That's something you're going to have to work out, or gamble on.

Using just one track doesn't paint a good picture. Some cars will be good at one track, and not so good at another. You need to average it out over a range of tracks to ensure that everyone has a reasonable chance in any car across a whole season.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on May 29, 2016, 05:32:53 PM
Yeah agreed, track list will really decide if MX5 is worth including, anything with longer straights than Modena it would be out against the others.

The track list will have a mix of tighter tracks and faster tracks. The MX5 will be strong at some tracks and weaker at others. Something to think about when you make your car choice. No one is forced to choose any particular car.

Here's the track list:

Paul Ricard WTCC
Tsukuba
Brands Hatch Indy
Imola
Baskerville
Silverstone Intn’l
Magione
Eastern Creek Druitt
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Rolz on May 29, 2016, 05:37:37 PM
Thanks for the track list Wally!

There are 1-2 I don't have so u might need to share the version u will run.

Then I'll give the RX7 and MX5 a run on all... decide then  ;D
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on May 29, 2016, 05:48:51 PM
Thanks for the track list Wally!

There are 1-2 I don't have so u might need to share the version u will run.

Then I'll give the RX7 and MX5 a run on all... decide then  ;D

OK, I'll put up download links and maybe make another thread.

Re the time comparison - it's all about this question: "Will random Driver X in car 1 have close racing with random Driver Y in car 2?". The question is not "Is Driver X faster in car 1 or car 2?" If you think of it that way, you can see that the RSR rank shows you on average, which cars will give close racing across a whole range of drivers of varying talent.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Rolz on May 29, 2016, 05:55:29 PM
Agree Wally

Just both cars are a real pleasure to drive.

Surprisingly I've never been a Wah-Wah-Wah rotary fan, but somehow the way the RX7 drives it really suits me.
MX5 same again, really captured my imagination.

Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: marty on May 30, 2016, 12:54:03 PM
Thanks for the track list Wally!

There are 1-2 I don't have so u might need to share the version u will run.

Then I'll give the RX7 and MX5 a run on all... decide then  ;D

OK, I'll put up download links and maybe make another thread.

Re the time comparison - it's all about this question: "Will random Driver X in car 1 have close racing with random Driver Y in car 2?". The question is not "Is Driver X faster in car 1 or car 2?" If you think of it that way, you can see that the RSR rank shows you on average, which cars will give close racing across a whole range of drivers of varying talent.

If you think cars that have a 28kmh top speed difference can ever produce close racing then that has a diferrent meaning to what I think it has.  ;) Already the jap pack has a clear quick car with 2 others that a good driver can almost compete with others driving the rx7 assuming that the fastest guys arent also in the rx7, the Supra that is a good choice if you want to be consistantly last.  The other cars do match up as they are in the same type of class even if some are a bit quicker then others. The mx5 cup is a completly different car that doesnt have any real direct competitor in AC as yet that I can see and so should just be raced in a single car field not in this sort of field I think.

Reverse grid racing with a car in the field that is so different I just see turning into a complete mess, the brake points for it are half the distance and cornering speeds are much faster while being way off on top speed. The people in it wont have any hope against every other car due to lack of speed and just spreading gaps out further amongst all others by the mx5 getting in the way so making the racing worse for everyone with it in the field.

I did test this when it first came out racing all the other jap pack cars, as I first saw times were close but in traffic they werent close at all.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on May 30, 2016, 01:57:26 PM
Well, lots to think about in your car choice then, huh?  ;)
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: grat on May 30, 2016, 03:09:25 PM
Hey, I don't want to be annoying, but... I actually agree completely with Marty. Mixing completely different type of cars with similar overall performance is great for the Mille Miglia and other time trials, but I am scared it would make for really bad short-track racing.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on May 30, 2016, 03:23:06 PM
Hey, I don't want to be annoying, but... I actually agree completely with Marty. Mixing completely different type of cars with similar overall performance is great for the Mille Miglia and other time trials, but I am scared it would make for really bad short-track racing.
Don't be scared... embrace the challenge as a sim racer. Having some MX5s (maybe!) on the track might make your race a little harder, it might make it a little more interesting... no one knows. You just have to deal with it.

 Remember, it is completely up to each individual what car they choose, and why.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: marty on May 30, 2016, 03:27:15 PM
Hey, I don't want to be annoying, but... I actually agree completely with Marty. Mixing completely different type of cars with similar overall performance is great for the Mille Miglia and other time trials, but I am scared it would make for really bad short-track racing.

Is there room for more annoying people beyond just me.  ;D But at least we do have a practice run this week so this should be shown up even if this track is an odd one out for me it still showed the other 4 are fairly consistant to the tests I did on a couple other tracks

Well, lots to think about in your car choice then, huh?  ;)

There is a clear easy choice with the one car that has an advantage and quite likely this will be 80% or more of the final grid. One clear choice of the car that has no advantage and I dont think we will see anyome choose a supra. Now a new car that has some advantages but will be a sitting duck due to its major weakness and really not fitting in well with the other cars available.

It will be good to see on the test race though and lets hope a few people try more then just the one car to show how the cars match up in a race.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on May 30, 2016, 03:55:52 PM
I just want to add, I'm interested to hear about problems like "this car won't make the distance on a full tank", or "this car only has soft tyres, which last 3 laps". Those are showstopper problems.

But subjective problems like too easy/too hard/too slippery/too cold/too fast/too slow are just matters of opinion that I am less interested in.  One man's problem is another man's challenge. What annoys some may intrigue or challenge others. Everyone is in the same boat; that's what I mean when I say you just have to deal with it.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: marty on May 30, 2016, 07:12:28 PM
I ran some laps at modena on the prac server with the mx5, had 2% less grip then the rx7 and was 6 tenths faster in the mx-5 here is how differently they get their lap times

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/d3c1/j57aoaorres4sb94g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/j57aoaorres4sb9/compare_mx5_rx7.JPG)
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: marty on May 30, 2016, 07:29:44 PM
Here is a comparison between the other 3 cars vs the rx7 with the best laps in each car on the prac server.

370vs rx7
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/704d/3cd9tllklds5w464g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3cd9tllklds5w46/RX7_370z.JPG)

Supra Rx7
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6621/n2ddo8tal3ezono4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/n2ddo8tal3ezono/RX7_Supra.JPG)

R34GTR vs Rx7
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/637e/qcs0h6c7qs04cm04g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/qcs0h6c7qs04cm0/rx7_r34gtr.JPG)
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on May 30, 2016, 07:44:05 PM
Yes, the MX5 is a different beast, with an advantage at this short track. It will be destroyed at longer tracks though. Your challenge,  should you choose to accept it, is how to deal with an MX5 on the track. Blitz it on the straight then defend into the corners? I find the RX7 very taily though, needing gentle throttle application in the corners. The Skyline corners much more on rails, with its 4 wheel steering. Perhaps the Skyline would be a better car against the MX5, at this track anyway.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Bruce on May 31, 2016, 08:19:50 AM
the epic late breaking you can do in the MX5 is cool and should give it a chance against the top speed cars in a small track
Ahhh, don't mention it to that pesky master of late braking, Imperious!
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: StanDaam on May 31, 2016, 08:40:50 AM
I did some more testings last night and like Grat, I agree with Marty on this one. The 370, R34, Rx7 Spirit and the slightly slower Supra, all match up well against each other. The MX5... hmmm...it's so different to the others, it seems out of place and would be slightly annoying in race IMHO. That's my 2 cents!!
 :P
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on May 31, 2016, 10:08:54 AM
2 cents noted :)

I'll see how it goes tonight, and under pressure of numbers, might take the MX5 out. But "annoying" isn't really a very good reason. You could just as well call it "strategically interesting". Remember, someone has to willingly choose to drive the MX5 in the season. They'll have their reasons for choosing that car.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Freezer on May 31, 2016, 04:24:37 PM
Yes, the MX5 is a different beast, with an advantage at this short track. It will be destroyed at longer tracks though. Your challenge,  should you choose to accept it, is how to deal with an MX5 on the track. Blitz it on the straight then defend into the corners? I find the RX7 very taily though, needing gentle throttle application in the corners. The Skyline corners much more on rails, with its 4 wheel steering. Perhaps the Skyline would be a better car against the MX5, at this track anyway.
Nothing wrong with a bit of david v goliath  . . .
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: marty on May 31, 2016, 05:05:21 PM
From a few races we had at this track the mx5 isnt too bad but the rest of the track list I doubt it will have the pace, the long slow corners are its specialty and thats pretty much all the the modena track has. The mx5 then is actually the quickest around a lap here by just over 1 second but other tracks if it cant set the quickest laps on its own it will have no hope. I still think they will just spread the field out more and will need some very patient people driving them as if your in the other cars your fully entitled to the racing line if ahead and so the much faster cornering mx5's need to find a way around without causing collisions.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: marty on June 01, 2016, 10:31:54 PM
I did some testing and seeing RSR seems to be the stat to go by ran laps there, it shows the jap cars other then the MX5 cup at least at Brands GP really havent had too many laps as it was fairly easy to set the best lap with those.

(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9d2b/qfteh0e8p9vrq176g.jpg) (https://www.mediafire.com/view/?qfteh0e8p9vrq17)

http://www.radiators-champ.com/RSRLiveTiming/index.php?page=driver_profile&id=2811

The MX5 cup there has had quite a few laps and so I was still 1 second off that time but there is heaps left in setup and driving that thing around there.

Kind of surprised at the longer track the GTR was pretty much as slow as the Supra then followed by the 370 with the Mazdaz I was fairly close but the rsr record is another second quicker in the mx5 cup so it would be quickest even around this track.

The other cars I didnt do too many laps but the MX5 I put a few in to just get within 1 second but didnt do much to the setup.

Cars top speeds tell an interesting story and explains why the rx7 is so much quicker then the others and by the look of this it will be a Mazda cup RX7 vs Mx5 cup.

RX7 206
Supra 199
370z 198
R34 196
MX5 cup 178
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on June 01, 2016, 11:12:35 PM
Interesting. In the RSR stats I pulled before, the Skyline was a straggler too, which is a bit surprising.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: StanDaam on June 02, 2016, 09:21:10 AM
I like the idea of a small ballast (20, 30, 50?) on the RX7 (and maybe others) to even up the cars  :P
Wally BoP!! (Sung by Cyndi Lauper!!)
 :P
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Wally on June 02, 2016, 10:14:37 AM
I like the idea of a small ballast (20, 30, 50?) on the RX7 (and maybe others) to even up the cars  :P
Wally BoP!! (Sung by Cyndi Lauper!!)
 :P
Nah, no ballast. It's up to people to choose the cars they like. Remember, some people race for the fun of close racing with others or because they enjoy a particular car, knowing they'll never win.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: StanDaam on June 02, 2016, 11:47:06 AM
I like to win!!
RX7 cup it is then!!
 :D
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: marty on June 02, 2016, 12:08:57 PM
Oh well RSR got a full reset after I set my laps lol.

I like the idea of a small ballast (20, 30, 50?) on the RX7 (and maybe others) to even up the cars  :P
Wally BoP!! (Sung by Cyndi Lauper!!)
 :P
Nah, no ballast. It's up to people to choose the cars they like. Remember, some people race for the fun of close racing with others or because they enjoy a particular car, knowing they'll never win.

The season already is reverse grid so will encourage close racing. Adding ballast to the faster cars would just make it more likely to have a mixed grid as you coulddo juat as well in any car. There really isnt much point picking the car that cant pass others if your also likely to start near the back most races.

I also wouldnt expect many people that are a little off the pace to pick the slower cars to make sure they are even more off the pace.
Title: Re: Jap Pack Car Ranking
Post by: Bruce on June 02, 2016, 12:12:48 PM
I like the idea of a small ballast (20, 30, 50?) on the RX7 (and maybe others) to even up the cars  :P
Wally BoP!! (Sung by Cyndi Lauper!!)
 :P
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